Holocaust Denial

[andyfox]

My point was that the fact that some Jews died from disease in the camps does not excuse the the concentration camp ovens. That most American natives died from disease does not excuse the episodes of murder by the European invaders.

[BluffTHIS!]

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The Nazis wanted to get rid of the Jews, but there are different ways to get rid of people. The official documents show that the intent was deportation.

I'm sure there were Nazis in the hierarchy who just intended to kill undesirables off, and many were. But this was not official policy. And like Beer and Pizza said, there is a difference between intentionally spreading disease and it happening due to circumstances. I don't think it was Nazi policy to go around coughing on undesirables and thereby eliminate them this way.

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Peter, it is truly sad that you feel such a compulsion to mitigate the culpability of the Nazi government overall, and individual Nazis as well. Would it really matter if it were found that Ted Bundy had killed two less persons or that some of his victims died from heat exhaustion or something before he could kill them?

[Gamblor]

-If not for the Jewish immigration those people would still have their homes.

Please, andy, that is a terrible argument because it ignores the decades in between and host of other factors.

The fact remains that the jewish immigration began in the 19th century, and the Arab intransigence to that immigration, founded in anti-semitism and xenophobia, led to the violence that led to the UN-mandated separation of the two peoples that led to the the War of Independence 5 decades later, that led to the people not having their homes. Chad Gadya.

A colony is a land settled or conquered by an outside nation and controlled by it.

Let's use the google definition (google search: colony definition): "a body of people who settle far from home but maintain ties with their homeland; inhabitants remain nationals of their home state but are not literally under the home state's system of government"

The settlers maintained no ties with their homelands and did not remain nationals of their home state.

The Jews defined themselves as a nation, albeit an unusual one without a land. They colonized Palestine.

Using the definition above, no they didn't.

[Peter666]

How can knowing the truth ever mitigate a situation?

If Holocaust numbers were purposely exaggerated to garner support for the state of Israel that would not have been there otherwise, and all the injustices that came from it which we are experiencing today, and possibly nuclear war tommorrow, not knowing the truth back in the day will be very costly in terms of human life.

[BluffTHIS!]

Another of your famous chain of *ifs* regarding details and not the core issues. But those long chains of *ifs* are just a compound probability which means the whole chain is much less likely to be true.

If you want to say the US shouldn't support Israel as strongly as it does that is fine, but there are other much more plausible reasons for doing so than trotting out a version of the Jewish Conspiracy Theory to do it with a bogus argument from one of the most barbaric acts of history.

[Peter666]

There are no *ifs* about the troubles in the Middle East. They did not spring out of a vacuum.

[andyfox]

"If Holocaust numbers were purposely exaggerated to garner support for the state of Israel that would not have been there otherwise, and all the injustices that came from it which we are experiencing today, and possibly nuclear war tommorrow, not knowing the truth back in the day will be very costly in terms of human life."

History would not have been any different had 4,000,000 died rather than 6,000,000. The holocaust happened and helped fuel the establishment of the state of Israel. That there was such a holocaust has nothing whatsoever to do with the "injustices that came from it." Those injustices were the choices made by the Zionist leadership. They could have established, for example, a binational state had they so desired. The future of Isreali/Palestinaina relations was in the cards long before the holocaust.

[BluffTHIS!]

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There are no *ifs* about the troubles in the Middle East. They did not spring out of a vacuum.

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They don't spring from a Jewish conspiracy regarding purposely exaggerating holocaust numbers either. But they do spring from the refusal of most Islamic states since Israel's refounding in 1948 to accept its existance.

[Peter666]

"The future of Isreali/Palestinaina relations was in the cards long before the holocaust."

That is true, but without mass exodus, the Jew's would not have had the numbers or international support of money and arms to fulfill the Zionist agenda. Remember, the claims immediately after the war were 9 million murdered Jews. This has definite emotional sway for international Jews and the politicians they supported.

If the concentration/death camps were called detention camps or deportation camps where murder took place but was not official policy, it changes the political picture drastically. We must not underestimate the value of media propaganda in effecting politics.

[Peter666]

And when did the Vatican accept the existence of Israel?