Nut flush on paired board

[Ulysses]

5-handed 15-30. My opponent on this hand is an unknown guy who seems to be relatively solid.

I open-raise in CO w/ Ad7d. Button cold-calls. Blinds fold.

Flop Jd Jh 3d

I bet. He calls.

Turn (Jd Jh 3d) 4d

I check. He bets. I check-raise. He 3-bets. I 4-bet. He calls. No cap on raises heads-up.

River (Jd Jh 3d 4d) 9c

I bet.

Straightforward start-to-finish, right?

[Ginogino]

Ulysses:
What kind of hand could he have? What kind of hand would you cold-call 2 bets with pre-flop that you wouldn't raise with? Given the rest of his betting, you've got to figure that his most likely hand is JX, and if they're suited that means clubs or spades. So he 3-bets the turn to see if you can beat trips.

It's possible, or course that the X-card above is a 9 (but if he's playing suited cards, there is only one card that fits -- the 9 of spades, which reduces his chances of the river card boating him). And I suppose he could have pocket 9's (rivering the boat).

This is not to say that he couldn't be badly mis-betting some other hand. I've seen enough bets that had absolutely nothing to do with the player's hand that I could see. Maybe he thinks he's slowplaying aces.

If I'm right that he's got trips, then by golly he'll raise your river bet and beat you. Sometimes it'll happen. But the large majority of the time, it won't. You played it just fine. Your river bet is for value.

Gino

[Tyler Durden]

I think it's straightforward but I'd prefer to bet the turn myself b/c he hasn't shown any aggression thus far. I'd be upset if he didn't bet it for me.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
it looks ok and no reason to suspect a boat here but i'm looking at the awful turn. you need to bet out in this situation ulysses.

if you bet out the action goes like this; bet, raise, reraise (by you) and either call or reraise. it's a little technical but you do not want to reraise a reraise without the nuts. to avoid that situation you must bet out into your opponent. now if you reraise a raise, that's fine. your hand can stand that. but it cannot stand reraising a reraise.

when you check-raise your opponent, you lose your radar a little because his reraise of your raise can mean that he has the nuts or a weaker hand. but if you bet out and he raises and then you reraise when he (a); calls, you know that he only has trips. when he (b); reraises your reraise, you can assume that he has the nuts and check and call on the river.

but the way you played it, not only did you risk a check-down failing to get more money in the pot with the likely winner, but you lost your read, and now may be facing an avoidable river raise. so the extra bet you got on the turn was not a bet that enhanced your position but one that weakend your position. and your check on the turn with the nut flush ulysses? just awful. never ever do that. even if you know for a fact that your opponent will bet when you check your nut flush, always bet it out yourself. i remember a post by you in which your opponent checked his nut flush and you checked behind on the turn, but then you got check-raised by him on the river. well, he was wrong to go for the turn check-raise. don't you start check-raising your nut flush because it is always a mistake to do so. yes, sometimes they're successful, but when you look into further you'll see check-raising the nut flush is a big no no. but this one here really stinks. you lose read. that's way bad.

[bad beetz]

do you fold to a five bet?

see, when I get three-bet on the turn here, my heart sinks and I make two crying calls.

I can't seem to make these big re-raises, so I'm going to start expirementing with PCP at the tables.

[AJo Go All In]

If I'm right that he's got trips, then by golly he'll raise your river bet and beat you. Sometimes it'll happen. But the large majority of the time, it won't. You played it just fine.

i haven't picked up the hoyle book in awhile, but i'm pretty sure a flush still beats three-of-a-kind..

seems pretty straightforward to me. i put your opponent on a smaller flush than you.

Your river bet is for value.

i'm sure ulysses will be thrilled to know that he didn't bluff the river in this hand.

[Ulysses]

You make some good points here and I'm inclined to agree that betting out on the turn here might be better.

FYI, part of the reason I checked is that I thought there was a decent chance this guy had absolutely nothing and in that case would take a stab at the pot if I checked the turn.

[Ulysses]

He dejectedly called my river bet and in a similarly dejected manner turned over 9dTd after I showed my hand. I guess his excitement pretty much started to fade once I 4-bet the turn.

How do you you guys play this in his position? Call down once I checkraise the turn? 3-bet the turn and fold to a 4-bet? Do the same thing he did?

[anatta]

I gotta play it like he did. You both are putting the other on trips, once you four bet, heads up with a flush, I am still calling down, but expecting to lose most of the time.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
right, he may have nothing or he may have two small pair. but whatever he has, the nut flush is very, very vulnerable. the biggest problem with it is that the next card either puts your opponent way ahead or way behind, and your opponent knows it. in other words, another flush card, and the board is horrifying to your opponent. a card that gives him a boat, however, can be deceptively stealthy from your point of view, but your opponent will know for a fact that he is ahead and will raise forcing you to call with the loser. the nut flush never gets stronger either. it only gets weaker. your opponents hand cannot get weaker, you already definately have him beat; his hand can only strengthen. so the idea is to take down the pot while the nut flush is at its most powerful setting, and before the board becomes totally horrifying.