Keeping opponents in when they are drawing thin - how bad?

Ulysses · #1 08-20-2003, 03:42 PM

$15-30. Decent game. Two complete idiots, two loose passives, four pretty decent players, and one LAG.

UTG limps. UTG is an expert player who rarely limps, especially not UTG. Very hard to say what this might be.

UTG+1 finds QhTd and decides to limp. UTG+1 is short-stacked w/ 3BB left after this call.

Moron in LP calls. Moron on the button calls. OK player in SB calls. BB, a solid, but somewhat overaggressive player calls.

Flop 9d Th Tc

SB checks. BB bets. UTG raises. UTG+1 cold-calls, perhaps expecting UTG or UTG+1 to reraise w/ a worse Ten. LP cold-calls. Button and SB fold. BB calls.

Turn (9d Th Tc) 6d

BB checks. UTG bets. UTG+1 raises two bets all-in. LP ponders a while and says "Dammit, I have to call - it's a jackpot hand" and cold-calls. BB now ponders a bit and mumbles to himself "That may have been a really bad turn card" but goes ahead and 3-bets anyway. UTG considers very briefly and mucks. UTG+1 is all-in. LP calls, clearly not happy about it.

River (9d Th Tc 6d) 6c

BB bets. LP mucks his 7d8d face-up.

BB turns over 66 for the flopped underpair, turned full house, and rivered quads.

UTG+1 shows his QdTh and the player next to him (they are very good long-time friends) promptly chastises him for not 3-betting the flop.

How bad was UTG+1's flop smooth-call? Open-ended straight draws are probably going to call anything on the flop. And one straight card makes his full house. The guy he could have knocked out was drawing to two outs. Given the size of the pot at the time (9SB) and his holding, does he want to kick BB out?

JTG51 · #2 08-20-2003, 03:48 PM

UTG+1 played it fine because he knew that you knew that your 66 was going to get there and thus you would have called the flop 3 bet.

Ginogino · #3 08-20-2003, 06:52 PM

Ulysses:
When the flop betting reaches UTG+1, he's three Big Bets from being all-in. It's 2SB to him. Is there any doubt that he will eventually get all his money into the pot?

Assume he raises and nobody folds. Clearly he's getting maximum odds when everyone left at the table calls.

Even if he raises and one or two opponents fold, he's still getting what in all probability is the best odds for his bet. How much better odds can UTG+1 get after the turn card hits than he's looking at now?

I don't like playing shortstaked. I'd like to have lost a ton more money on this hand (and I'd have been just as peeved at the results). But when you're shortstaked, and you know that you're going all-in with your hand after the flop, then it seems to me you want to get the maximum in the pot for every buck you put in.

Gino

M.B.E. · #4 08-20-2003, 08:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks. BB bets. UTG raises. UTG+1 cold-calls, perhaps expecting UTG or UTG+1 to reraise w/ a worse Ten. LP cold-calls. Button and SB fold. BB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a little confused.

Since UTG+1 is shortstacked, calling is obviously correct when he flops such a huge hand. Raising would be terrible. Even on the turn I don't like UTG+1's raise all-in. I think calling would be better, although I'm open to persuasion on that point.

Note that these questions about how to play when short-stacked are often susceptible to precise mathematical calculation.

bad beetz · #5 08-20-2003, 10:32 PM

elysium · #6 08-21-2003, 12:58 AM

hi ulysses
well it's a clear 3 bet on the flop. by the way, was that a good call or not by the LP for the jackpot? i mean, was the jackpot needed in order to make calling correct if in fact calling was correct?

Ulysses · #7 08-21-2003, 04:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 played it fine because he knew that you knew that your 66 was going to get there and thus you would have called the flop 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're good, man, very good. But I really would have folded to a 3-bet on the flop.

Ulysses · #8 08-21-2003, 05:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Since UTG+1 is shortstacked, calling is obviously correct when he flops such a huge hand. Raising would be terrible. Even on the turn I don't like UTG+1's raise all-in. I think calling would be better, although I'm open to persuasion on that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

How would your answer change if he weren't short-stacked? And why?

Ulysses · #9 08-21-2003, 05:07 AM

Well, if it is wrong, it's definitely not very wrong. Even if BB is ahead, the field is obviously drawing very live against him.

But with a 9TT board, I figured there was a decent chance I was ahead. I mean, why should someone have a Ten? And who plays hands with a nine in them? Especially when a lot of the sixes and tens that go with them are accounted for?

If I checked, there would be a bet and raise (both of which could easily come from overcards or draws) and I'd have to fold what may well be the best hand. I hate doing that. But if I bet and it got 3-bet, I could easily fold without any question - someone would have to have at least a nine to 3-bet here.

Once it was raised and called, I planned to fold to a bet and call if I didn't improve on the turn. Frankly, I wasn't terribly thrilled with my hand when the flop cold-caller raised on the turn. I thought there was a decent chance he flopped a full house or quads.

Ulysses · #10 08-21-2003, 05:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
by the way, was that a good call or not by the LP for the jackpot?

[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely. Jackpot is $100k, $25k to the winning hand. One opponent could definitely have a hand like AT (or QT as it were). If that's the case and the Td hits on the river, that's $25k for the straight flush and $50k for quad Tens. Clear call. Plus, when it's bet and raised to him, he still may be up against trip tens only, so he might have the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
i mean, was the jackpot needed in order to make calling correct if in fact calling was correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the jackpot is required to make calling the bet and raise correct. AT/QT, for example, could bet and raise on the turn. But when the check/3-bet comes out, I think he can consider laying down without the jackpot. Then again, I'd probably call for one more bet. Big pot.