An old Ray Zee Tid bit

[Noo Yawk]

Back when the forum was a bit less cluttered. I didn't bother putting any other replies, just the 3 that Ray contributed. The man is just awesome. Enjoy:



Plus EV?
Posted by: Tom Haley (thaley@nmia.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 April 1998, at 10:08 a.m.

Plus EV?

The following developed in a $10-20 game last weekend. The game is fairly loose and somewhat aggressive. There are 5 callers to the player who is immediately to the right of the button who raises, button calls, little blind folds, and big blind calls (tricky player who I posted about previously) and everyone else calls. Eight players for 2 bets pre-flop. Flop comes down Q,7,5 as Q and 5 are diamonds. Big blind bets and gets 1 caller and original raiser raises, button cold calls and big blind calls. Next card off is T as the only 2 suited cards are the original diamonds. Checked around to the original raiser who bets, button calls, and the big blind check raises and both of the other players call. The river is a blank. The big blind bets and gets called by the original raiser. Big blind turns over Q,5o for two pair! The big blind is a good player but I?m wondering about him calling a raise in the big blind with Q,5o. Then I started thinking that he was getting some very high pre-flop odds, 15.5 - 1 neglecting the rake so maybe it was worth it. I know that someone else who called could have raised again pre-flop but in this game this play is a rarity. How bad was this call?




Re: Plus EV?
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 April 1998, at 11:27 a.m.

Tom,

How much the worst of it could any decent player have getting 15 to 1 before the flop. It would be measured in pennies. Remember all hands are valued by the odds they are getting to win. With q5 he was not too far off from getting the odds to flop 2 pair or trips, plus the chance to flop probable winning straight or flush draws and the chance of flopping a winning queen you can see it starts to make sense. Good Luck.

Re: Plus EV?
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 April 1998, at 10:36 p.m.

T.P.,

If you play to keep your fluctuations small even the bad opponents see it and play better against you. I had a friend that always said at the table when he lost a pot how he had the best of it on the hand. The bad players still played against him with the worst of it anyway, but they didnt play when they had alot the worst of it. His free money just wasnt there in the game. By keeping your fluctuations small it could cut down your win rate as well. I suggest playing close hands when it will not make you look like an "ungambling person". There is alot more to winning large amounts than starting with the best hand. Good Luck.



Re: Plus EV?
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 April 1998, at 11:17 p.m.

What alot of great debate Tom has stirred up with this question. First of all the Q5 is about 10 to 1 dog to win in a showdown based on the type of game that was talked about. A decent player should be able to get away from some of the traps and be able to punish those that play badly farther on in the hand. Everyone seemed to neglect the times he would win with just a queen out there or luck into a straight. I would agree that J5 or T5 would not have a higher pair chance of winning. Surely no-one person could believe it is much of a hand or even a hand that has any real value except that with the preflop money and the after flop bets to the Q5 he may be getting over 20 to 1 to hit a playable hand. If you want to make a loose call at a large pot why not now? If you take the considerations that I mentioned in my 2 posts and throw it all in the wash you dont have any real downside in my thinking. Those people that are branded tricky players always seem to get extra money during the game from most of the table including me. Those that take few chances just get tough action from those that pay attention. I wont say any more on this hand. Good Luck.