Challenge Accepted, Sheetwise (What Democrats Believe)

[SammyKid11]

In another thread (titled "The Difference Between Democrats and Republicans" - an utterly useless discussion on how Democrats' fail to mention white males in a list of minority groups), SheetWise stated that the Democratic Party had no core beliefs. I told him he was full of crap, and he challenged me to start a new thread stating affirmative Democratic principles (ie - not what we're against). As a proud Democrat, I am happy to accept that challenge. Here are some of my core Democratic beliefs, SheetWise:

Democrats are the party that first initiated the belief that growing old ought never be about growing poor again...and so FDR started a small, wildly successful program called Social Security. Before that day, the elderly were in the bread lines. After that day, every American lived with the comfort that even after their bodies or minds were unable to work, they would not go homeless or starve. Your grandparents certainly thank us for that, as you will one day (because yes, despite George Bush's desperate attempt to give a gift to Wall Street, Social Security WILL survive without his fantastically unpopular private accounts).

Civil rights for minorities is another Democratic Party principle. JFK is largely credited with enacting some of the most powerful enforcement of these measures, and it has been Democrats throughout the last 50 years who have fought for further protection for those "non-white-males." It is because of the Democratic Party's leadership that Jim Crow laws were struck down, that schools were integrated, that women received some protections in the workplace. That fight continues today -- all the while being opposed by Republicans. Democrats fight every legislative session to enact paid family leave to protect the rights of a woman in the workplace who decides to have a child. Democrats fight every legislative session to end blatantly racist mandatory minimums for crack users -- 90% of drug users are white, 90 % of crack users are black -- crack use routinely carries sentences 8-10 times longer than the more expensive, more "white" powder cocaine sentences. All the while fought by Republicans, Democrats press on in this fight for social justice.

Democrats fight the excesses and abuses of corporate America. It is Democrats who have argued a CEO caught embezzling millions from corporate stockholders ought to receive harsher sentences than the guy who steals 200 bucks out of a cash register. It is Democrats who seek limits on the amount of corporate media ownership, seeking to ensure that the public always receives a wide range of opinions not controlled by four or five leviathan corporations. It is Democrats who fight for tax breaks for ordinary Americans, instead of pumping billions into tax windfalls for large oil corporations who are already gouging the public and enjoying record profits. It is Democrats who won't bend on tort "reform" that would make it impossible to punish the evils committed by industries such as insurance, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, and oil -- industries who, while providing a useful service, also have been known to defraud the public, create unsafe drugs, and poison the environment.

Speaking of the environment, in major politics it is ONLY the Democrats who have enacted any useful legislation with the foresight to know that our natural resources are precious and running out. Human development is a great thing, but if we destroy the planet in the process, we're going to take a huge step backward. And while Republicans vociferously defend corporate stockholders' right to profit from anything...it is Democrats speaking up for the everyman whose grandchildren's lives will be ruined if we do not protect the air, the water, and the land.

It is the Democratic Party who is fighting for more personal freedom in this country. The religious right has a stranglehold on the country at the moment, and the tide is sweeping gay and lesbian people out into the deep. The witchhunt to ban gay marriage in the United States is shameful, hypocritical, and discriminatory...and the Democrats are the only ones fighting to make sure it doesn't become a permanent reality. They've fought for gays' and lesbian's right to be free from legal persecution for merely HAVING sex (opposing ridiculous state sodomy laws), for their right to join the military (even though "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" didn't go nearly far enough, it was the most Clinton could get out of a Republican majority), they've fought for gay and lesbian's right to be free from workplace discrimination, and they've fought for gay and lesbian's right to civil unions -- where even if they're unjustly denied the term "marriage" (because separate is NOT equal), at least they can enjoy the civil goods like survivor benefits, child custody, spousal insurance benefits, and a myriad of other important protections. And it's only Democrats who are fighting the really good fight in pockets of this country to ensure that gays and lesbians can actually marry -- the Massachusetts legislature and the mayor of San Francisco come to mind.

It is Democrats who believe health care should not be a privilege in the richest country on earth...it should be a right. Even in defeat, Senator John Kerry's proposed legislation on children's health care is valuable and should be enacted. It is shameful that 1 in 5 kids have no health coverage whatsoever, and only Democrats have their priorities in order enough to say, "tax cuts for the rich and corporations should happen AFTER we make sure no child suffers without health care." Talk about morals and values voting, I can't think of a higher one than that.

It is Democrats who are still fervently fighting for public education in this country. If you want the standard of children in this country to improve, you have to have better teachers. The fact that teachers are paid less than garbagemen in some parts of this country is embarassing. No wonder you (or your child) only has/had one or two really outstanding teachers in 13 years of public schooling. Most of the truly exceptional people in this world want to make good money at what they do. It is only the Democratic Party fighting to make competitive teacher pay a reality, so that college graduates are fighting over those jobs, and so that our children receive a greater opportunity to excel at life. And it is only the Democratic Party who is unwilling to give up on public education by diverting money AWAY from the public school system and into private school vouchers at a time when private schools are turning away those that can afford them on their own.

It is the Democratic Pary who believes that we should keep our international priorities in focus. Yes, some Democrats "opposed" the War in Iraq. I can't speak for all of us, because it's a big party. But the reason I felt that way is because I wanted the true culprit of our tragedy to be caught, prosecuted, and executed. It is Democrats who fight tirelessly to devote more of our military resources toward capturing Osama bin Laden and the rest of his regime, instead of throwing more and more money into the black hole of Iraq. Now that we're there, I do believe we must do what we can to help the Iraqi people restore order...but ultimately, we will not outlast a native people who we've invaded. We should have learned that from our own revolutionary experiences. It is Democrats who are realistic enough to realize that a higher priority ought to be securing our borders, ports, and NUCLEAR AND CHEMICAL PLANTS. The Department of Homeland Security was a DEMOCRATIC proposal...one at which George Bush balked the first time around. Only AFTER public opinion so clearly stated approval for the idea did G-Dub FLIP-FLOP and take credit for the whole thing. But it is clear in the record of recent history that Democrats proposed it, and it is Democrats who have pushed the government to further fund it to do all of what it is supposed to do.

These are a lot of core beliefs and principles...and there are many more. But basically, SheetWise...we Democrats stand for personal freedom, protection of the individual against the greed of large corporations AND against the overreach of the religious right...we stand for protection of the environment...we stand for prudent, but decisive, military action...we stand for health care for all, a far-improved education system...and we are WILLING to say that we can't cut taxes for private millionaires and billionaire corporations until we've righted some definite wrongs in this country. Both parties TALK about doing these things, but it's only Democrats who are willing to do what's necessary to PAY for them.

Now, like I said in the earlier thread...you might not AGREE with the core principles of the Democratic Party, but to say we have none is inane, ridiculous, and just plain ignorant. I'm no political scientist...I'm just a run-of-the-mill Democrat, and I've listed a whole page of principles off the top of my head. Your statement about our lack of principles is patently false...now the trick is admitting you were wrong!

[Autocratic]

Very good effort but uh, we have a platform guys. Platform.

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
In another thread (titled "The Difference Between Democrats and Republicans" - an utterly useless discussion on how Democrats' fail to mention white males in a list of minority groups), SheetWise stated that the Democratic Party had no core beliefs. I told him he was full of crap, and he challenged me to start a new thread stating affirmative Democratic principles (ie - not what we're against). As a proud Democrat, I am happy to accept that challenge. Here are some of my core Democratic beliefs, SheetWise:

Democrats are the party that first initiated the belief that growing old ought never be about growing poor again...and so FDR started a small, wildly successful program called Social Security. Before that day, the elderly were in the bread lines. After that day, every American lived with the comfort that even after their bodies or minds were unable to work, they would not go homeless or starve. Your grandparents certainly thank us for that, as you will one day (because yes, despite George Bush's desperate attempt to give a gift to Wall Street, Social Security WILL survive without his fantastically unpopular private accounts).

Civil rights for minorities is another Democratic Party principle. JFK is largely credited with enacting some of the most powerful enforcement of these measures, and it has been Democrats throughout the last 50 years who have fought for further protection for those "non-white-males." It is because of the Democratic Party's leadership that Jim Crow laws were struck down, that schools were integrated, that women received some protections in the workplace. That fight continues today -- all the while being opposed by Republicans. Democrats fight every legislative session to enact paid family leave to protect the rights of a woman in the workplace who decides to have a child. Democrats fight every legislative session to end blatantly racist mandatory minimums for crack users -- 90% of drug users are white, 90 % of crack users are black -- crack use routinely carries sentences 8-10 times longer than the more expensive, more "white" powder cocaine sentences. All the while fought by Republicans, Democrats press on in this fight for social justice.

Democrats fight the excesses and abuses of corporate America. It is Democrats who have argued a CEO caught embezzling millions from corporate stockholders ought to receive harsher sentences than the guy who steals 200 bucks out of a cash register. It is Democrats who seek limits on the amount of corporate media ownership, seeking to ensure that the public always receives a wide range of opinions not controlled by four or five leviathan corporations. It is Democrats who fight for tax breaks for ordinary Americans, instead of pumping billions into tax windfalls for large oil corporations who are already gouging the public and enjoying record profits. It is Democrats who won't bend on tort "reform" that would make it impossible to punish the evils committed by industries such as insurance, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, and oil -- industries who, while providing a useful service, also have been known to defraud the public, create unsafe drugs, and poison the environment.

Speaking of the environment, in major politics it is ONLY the Democrats who have enacted any useful legislation with the foresight to know that our natural resources are precious and running out. Human development is a great thing, but if we destroy the planet in the process, we're going to take a huge step backward. And while Republicans vociferously defend corporate stockholders' right to profit from anything...it is Democrats speaking up for the everyman whose grandchildren's lives will be ruined if we do not protect the air, the water, and the land.

It is the Democratic Party who is fighting for more personal freedom in this country. The religious right has a stranglehold on the country at the moment, and the tide is sweeping gay and lesbian people out into the deep. The witchhunt to ban gay marriage in the United States is shameful, hypocritical, and discriminatory...and the Democrats are the only ones fighting to make sure it doesn't become a permanent reality. They've fought for gays' and lesbian's right to be free from legal persecution for merely HAVING sex (opposing ridiculous state sodomy laws), for their right to join the military (even though "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" didn't go nearly far enough, it was the most Clinton could get out of a Republican majority), they've fought for gay and lesbian's right to be free from workplace discrimination, and they've fought for gay and lesbian's right to civil unions -- where even if they're unjustly denied the term "marriage" (because separate is NOT equal), at least they can enjoy the civil goods like survivor benefits, child custody, spousal insurance benefits, and a myriad of other important protections. And it's only Democrats who are fighting the really good fight in pockets of this country to ensure that gays and lesbians can actually marry -- the Massachusetts legislature and the mayor of San Francisco come to mind.

It is Democrats who believe health care should not be a privilege in the richest country on earth...it should be a right. Even in defeat, Senator John Kerry's proposed legislation on children's health care is valuable and should be enacted. It is shameful that 1 in 5 kids have no health coverage whatsoever, and only Democrats have their priorities in order enough to say, "tax cuts for the rich and corporations should happen AFTER we make sure no child suffers without health care." Talk about morals and values voting, I can't think of a higher one than that.

It is Democrats who are still fervently fighting for public education in this country. If you want the standard of children in this country to improve, you have to have better teachers. The fact that teachers are paid less than garbagemen in some parts of this country is embarassing. No wonder you (or your child) only has/had one or two really outstanding teachers in 13 years of public schooling. Most of the truly exceptional people in this world want to make good money at what they do. It is only the Democratic Party fighting to make competitive teacher pay a reality, so that college graduates are fighting over those jobs, and so that our children receive a greater opportunity to excel at life. And it is only the Democratic Party who is unwilling to give up on public education by diverting money AWAY from the public school system and into private school vouchers at a time when private schools are turning away those that can afford them on their own.

It is the Democratic Pary who believes that we should keep our international priorities in focus. Yes, some Democrats "opposed" the War in Iraq. I can't speak for all of us, because it's a big party. But the reason I felt that way is because I wanted the true culprit of our tragedy to be caught, prosecuted, and executed. It is Democrats who fight tirelessly to devote more of our military resources toward capturing Osama bin Laden and the rest of his regime, instead of throwing more and more money into the black hole of Iraq. Now that we're there, I do believe we must do what we can to help the Iraqi people restore order...but ultimately, we will not outlast a native people who we've invaded. We should have learned that from our own revolutionary experiences. It is Democrats who are realistic enough to realize that a higher priority ought to be securing our borders, ports, and NUCLEAR AND CHEMICAL PLANTS. The Department of Homeland Security was a DEMOCRATIC proposal...one at which George Bush balked the first time around. Only AFTER public opinion so clearly stated approval for the idea did G-Dub FLIP-FLOP and take credit for the whole thing. But it is clear in the record of recent history that Democrats proposed it, and it is Democrats who have pushed the government to further fund it to do all of what it is supposed to do.

These are a lot of core beliefs and principles...and there are many more. But basically, SheetWise...we Democrats stand for personal freedom, protection of the individual against the greed of large corporations AND against the overreach of the religious right...we stand for protection of the environment...we stand for prudent, but decisive, military action...we stand for health care for all, a far-improved education system...and we are WILLING to say that we can't cut taxes for private millionaires and billionaire corporations until we've righted some definite wrongs in this country. Both parties TALK about doing these things, but it's only Democrats who are willing to do what's necessary to PAY for them.

Now, like I said in the earlier thread...you might not AGREE with the core principles of the Democratic Party, but to say we have none is inane, ridiculous, and just plain ignorant. I'm no political scientist...I'm just a run-of-the-mill Democrat, and I've listed a whole page of principles off the top of my head. Your statement about our lack of principles is patently false...now the trick is admitting you were wrong!

[/ QUOTE ]

You make the common mistake of conflating goals with policies.

You identify with the Democrats on certain things not becuase of HOW they are proposing to solve something, but because of WHAT they propose to solve.

For example, ending poverty for the elderly is a wonderful goal, noone is opposed to such a thing. The solution promoted by Democrats is absurdly bad. If you tried to design the worst possible way to accomplish the goal of ending poverty for the elderly, you might not be able to top Social Security as we have it today.

The goals are great. It's the policies that matter.

natedogg

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]


You make the common mistake of conflating goals with policies.

You identify with the Democrats on certain things not becuase of HOW they are proposing to solve something, but because of WHAT they propose to solve.

For example, ending poverty for the elderly is a wonderful goal, noone is opposed to such a thing. The solution promoted by Democrats is absurdly bad. If you tried to design the worst possible way to accomplish the goal of ending poverty for the elderly, you might not be able to top Social Security as we have it today.

The goals are great. It's the policies that matter.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Social Security is the one thing I listed where I was just listing an historical achievement. Solving the current problem of Social Security requires a very common-sense approach that neither party is willing to commit to because it will lose them votes.....raising the retirement age. When FDR envisioned Social Security and set the retirement age, average lifespan was ~ 55...now it's ~ 75. People are now living off the system for 10+ years, and that (combined with the Baby Boom) is what's draining money out of the coffers. But Republicans are no better than Democrats on this issue.

Nevertheless, if you want to criticize me for only agreeing with goals instead of policies, why not tell me what you (or the Republicans) are doing better? Why hit and run?

Also, what other issue in my post do you see as my doing the same thing? I believe the education problem in this country is best solved by hiring more teachers at higher wages, the health care crisis in this country is best solved by providing government coverage for those under a certain income level, and that we pay for those things by not giving tax breaks to corporations that are already profitting off our country like banchees. It's an ideological difference...I (and Dems) think education and health care are more important than giving rich people more help on their taxes. Republicans do not.

I believe that environmental policy in this country is important and needs to be dealt with by serious people, not people who used to run the companies that harmed the environment the most. It's incestuous -- it'd be like picking Howard Stern to run the FCC. I believe we need serious men and women of science to set the environmental policy in this country. Republicans do not.

I believe who a person decides to marry is none of your damned business, and that anyone who votes for a candidate who believes it's okay to amend the Constitution of this country to reflect a bigoted policy towards homosexuals...is a bigot themselves. Republicans do not.

I believe that international prudence, focusing on (and capturing) our primary enemies, and fully protecting our homeland are more important than waging war against Iraq was. Republicans do not.

I believe in putting an end to racist laws, like mandatory minimums, which blatantly put "black" drugs in a legal category far more serious than predominantly white drugs. Republicans do not, or they wouldn't fight for such legislation in every session.

These are not things where I just identify with the stated goals and everyone agrees with them. These are things where my party stands for one thing and the Republicans stand for the opposite.

It's your right to disagree with the ideological perspectives and policies of the Democratic Party, but I won't let you mischaracterize what I'm saying based on one historical example (still one where Democrats created the system in the first place against Republican opposition) that neither party is doing the proper thing to fix. I identify with Democrats because their ideology is more fair and their solutions more pragmatic.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, ending poverty for the elderly is a wonderful goal, noone is opposed to such a thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha...I just saw this. You know who was opposed to such a thing as Social Security when it was first proposed? Conservative, Wall Street REPUBLICANS. It was the ONLY measure on the table to keep our elderly from becoming impoverished, it has worked QUITE well over the years, and Republicans said "hell no."

In another 50 years, it'll be things like gay marriage, universal health care for the poor, strict environmental standards, and high-paying teacher salaries that someone like you will say, "no one opposes that." Exactly -- but they did when the ideas were proposed, and it took Democrats to break through and establish them as STANDARD PRACTICE.

And again, instead of just making a blanket statement like, "Social Security is absurdly bad," why not ACTUALLY EXPLAIN YOURSELF.

[natedogg]

I'll pick your paragraph 2 for starters. Note that I'm not a Republican.

[ QUOTE ]
Civil rights for minorities is another Democratic Party principle.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is too funny. You need to read more history.

[ QUOTE ]
It is because of the Democratic Party's leadership that Jim Crow laws were struck down, that schools were integrated, that women received some protections in the workplace. That fight continues today -- all the while being opposed by Republicans.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Go read some history and then get back to us on what you learned about Democrats and civil rights battles in the south.

[ QUOTE ]
Democrats fight every legislative session to end blatantly racist mandatory minimums for crack users

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe SOME democrats, but you are out of your mind if you think Democrats are soft on the drug war. Mandatory minimums are in place largely BECAUSE of democrats. Go read up on John Kerry's legislative history with regard to the drug war. Mandatory minimums, asset forfeiture. It's all there.

[ QUOTE ]
Democrats press on in this fight for social justice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good lord. You can't possibly be this ignorant.

natedogg

[fimbulwinter]

having read most of your post i think it's hilariously clear that you understand very little about basic history, economics or political theory.

fim

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example, ending poverty for the elderly is a wonderful goal, noone is opposed to such a thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha...I just saw this. You know who was opposed to such a thing as Social Security when it was first proposed? Conservative, Wall Street REPUBLICANS.


[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh. you are making the same mistake again. Being opposed to Social Security legislation does not mean you want old people starve. It means you don't think the legislation is very good.

Until you can learn the difference between supporting the stated goals of policy versus the actual policy itself, I'm afraid you are destined to spend your life as a useful tool of whoever offers you a nice platitude with some program to go with it.

One more time: no one is opposed to ending poverty for the elderly. It's the *how*. But you and people like you are too confused to understand that just because someone opposes a proposed solution to a problem does not mean they want the problem to continue.




[ QUOTE ]

In another 50 years, it'll be things like gay marriage, universal health care for the poor, strict environmental standards, and high-paying teacher salaries that someone like you will say, "no one opposes that." Exactly -- but they did when the ideas were proposed, and it took Democrats to break through and establish them as STANDARD PRACTICE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, all those issues you listed are rolled up into the Democratic solution to the issue as if they are inseparable.

I assume by your term "universal healthcare" you mean "health care managed by the state". Who doesn't want all the poor to have health care? It's absurd to claim anyone is opposed to the poor having health care.

It's also absurd to claim that being opposed to a universal *government* program for health care means that you want the poor to have no health care.

Think about that for a while as you are sitting up there on your high horse.

[ QUOTE ]

And again, instead of just making a blanket statement like, "Social Security is absurdly bad," why not ACTUALLY EXPLAIN YOURSELF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my. Trust me. You are really out of your league on this issue with me, but I'll do my best. Let's start with a socratic approach:

What do you think is the goal of Social Security? Whatever you answer, I will then explain why SOcial Security is a bad solution to that goal.

natedogg

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
having read most of your post i think it's hilariously clear that you understand very little about basic history, economics or political theory.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

That was being extremely generous. I'll add that it's very clear the OP is at best old enough to drink.

natedogg

[SammyKid11]

To both of you...telling someone to read history because you disagree with their recounting of events is hilarious to me. Also, telling them to read history and providing none yourselves is insulting. Give me your account of history and I'm happy to have a rational discussion with you about it. You guys are ideologically charged and are providing nothing but snappy one-liners.

If what you're referring to on civil rights is that Southern Democrats were awful, so be it. Southern Democrats from the 50's and 60's are now called Republicans. Northern Dems carried on the tradition that is, today, the Democratic Party...and I'm happy to credit the bulk of civil rights successes to men like JFK, MLK, LBJ, and even Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton - Democrats all.

If you're going to condescendingly tell me to read more history, why don't you provide some, you retards?