FTOP, really either/or?

[PlayerA]

FTOP basically states that if your opponently would play differently if they saw your cards, you gain. If they would play the same, you lose.

I think that it's not really so clear cut. I understand that poker is a zero-sum game (minus the rake). However, consider a situation in Hold'em where 10 people see the flop for 1 big blind. One player flops TPTK and another flops nut flush draw. Everyone else flops nothing and drops (of course this is contrived but bear with me). Now, TPTK is correct to bet and nut flush draw is correct to call. I contend that both players don't really lose anything at the expense of each other just because they would play the same if they saw each other's cards. What has happened here is that both players have gained at the expense of the other 8 players.

So, what about those cases where both players play the same if they see each other's cards? Where does that fit? Am I supposed to use the search function?

[Bez]

You are correct, neither player has lost out.

[axioma]

well, youve not considered pre flop.

say the TPTK player has AK, would it be correct for the nut flush drawer to call with Axs preflop?

i guess it depends on position, in as much as you would need to know you were getting a large multi way pot to justify the call.

[Bez]

I was just considering the call on the flop but with 10 players to the flop, calling with Axs would presumeably be correct even against AK.

[axioma]

yes youre right, given a 10 player pot it would be correct to call with Axs.

but, given that depending on your position you cannot be sure of this all the time, the correct decision can be effected by the knowledge of other peoples holdings (eg seeing the AK) pre flop.

[Bez]

I agree with what you say. With regards to the FTOP I believe Sklansky makes the point that both players in a pot can both adhere to the FTOP - both can play correctly even though only 1 can win.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

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Now, TPTK is correct to bet and nut flush draw is correct to call.

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Right

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I contend that both players don't really lose anything at the expense of each other just because they would play the same if they saw each other's cards.

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Wrong. According to FTOP, TPTK loses because the draw is getting good odds on his call. He still gains money by getting his bet called, but not nearly as much as if the draw did the incorrect thing and folds or raises. FTOP does not state that either are playing incorrectly but what you WANT your opponent to do would be to act in a manner that he would not act in if he could see your cards.

Say, as in your example, there was $110 in pot when the draw was to act. By playing correctly and calling (and on the turn too if he misses) the draw will win about 1/3 of the time. He then has roughly $35 of equity in the pot. TPTK then has around $75 equity. By folding he forfeits all his equity to TPTK and makes a mistake. And though a large portion of the time TPTK will gain $30 in extra calls, he will also lose at least $30 and maybe $70 in addition to the $75 in pot equity that he has when he bets the flop. Simply put, he will gain far more if the draw folds every time on the flop here. So in a sense, and the sense that FTOP is alluding to, TPTK loses when the draw makes the call.

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What has happened here is that both players have gained at the expense of the other 8 players.

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PErhaps. Unless, for example, someone who was drawing dead or w/ insufficient odds to call folded. Then they would like him to keep donating. But even if they have collectively gained from the other 8, that does not mean that TPTK does not wish the draw will make a mistake and fold.

PT

[Cerril]

Like you said, in that case both players are playing the same before and after, so you're really not winning a larger share of his money in that case postflop; what you're really doing is splitting everyone else's money. Some of them, though, might also have made the theoretical right decision based on the exact same idea.

Chances are very good though that if they could have seen everyone's cards, some people shouldn't have been in the hand to the flop. Most of their money gets split among everyone else. That's where the FTOP comes in.

That's one of those things though, even at the end, if someone made the right decision the whole way and loses then you aren't really winning any of their (theoretical) money, since if it got replayed an infinite number of times they'd win precisely their share, which would be equal to or larger than what they lost to you.

[PlayerA]

Very good explanation. Thanks.