New to O8, flopped nut-straight, what do I do??

kong98 · #1 10-27-2005, 01:52 AM

I'm new to Omaha-8, and I was hoping for a critique of a hand I played.

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Omaha/8 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls, CO caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (15 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, MP2 folds, CO raises, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 31 BB

I really find that I don't know what I should be thinking about at each stage of the hand. Just reading my hand takes so much effort that I'm lost with what I want to do with it! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

1. Is this a fold pre-flop? I figured with my suited ace, a pair and a weak low-draw that the hand was playable. Is this silly thinking? Does the pair add value or hurt my hand?

2. Do I want to call on the flop to build a pot, or raise to limit the opposition? (Once things got exciting, I figured that jamming was the right thing to do?)

3. I should have raised the turn right? (I didn't realize until I was looking back at the HH that I picked up a flush-draw. 4 cards is a lot to keep track of! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img])

4. I call the river right? (Pot is huge, and while the FH is possible, I have the second nuts right?)

Thanks for your help!

Kent

jcx · #2 10-27-2005, 04:10 AM

Fold this pre-flop. The flop you recv'd is one of the best your hand could hope for, and you are almost certainly playing for 1/2 the pot as someone has made a low. Your hi hand is in big trouble if the board pairs or someone drawing to a better str8 gets lucky. In the long run you will get crucified playing hands like this. Just fold.

Paxosmotic · #3 10-27-2005, 07:39 AM

I think we can fold that river once UTG comes alive. CO's either had low locked up since the flop or just hit his full house, and UTG's just filled up.

Buzz · #4 10-27-2005, 08:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. Is this a fold pre-flop?....

[/ QUOTE ]

Kent - Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
.... Does the pair add value or hurt my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hurts.

Everything adds value to your hand. However, a low pair doesn’t add enough value to your hand. In other words, there are many other two-card combinations you should rather hold, and that your opponents may hold, than a pair of sixes.

I think low pairs are more of a liability than an asset. And an eight is the worst card in the deck in full games.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Do I want to call on the flop to build a pot, or raise to limit the opposition?...

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to limit the opposition.

Your hand/flop is not strong enough to slow play.

[ QUOTE ]
3. I should have raised the turn right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. You’d like to protect your hand, but you can’t. Nobody is going to fold to your raise . You’re only playing for half the pot, there is a fair possibility you’re quartered or even sixthed for high, and if you’re not you might easily be beaten on the river if the board pairs.

[ QUOTE ]
4. I call the river right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right.

[ QUOTE ]
I have the second nuts right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. Quad tens is the nuts. After that are six possible full houses, all of which beat your straight. But you’re next!

Buzz

kong98 · #5 10-27-2005, 11:27 AM

Thanks alot for your help guys. I ended up winning the high, and the other 2 split the low, but I didn't feel comfortable with the hand.

Its a tough learning process when bad plays yield good results. This hand will be going into the muck in the future. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks,
Kent

jedi · #6 10-27-2005, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
3. I should have raised the turn right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. You’d like to protect your hand, but you can’t. Nobody is going to fold to your raise . You’re only playing for half the pot, there is a fair possibility you’re quartered or even sixthed for high, and if you’re not you might easily be beaten on the river if the board pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like raising the turn for value here, as Hero has also picked up the nut flush draw.

Ribbo · #7 10-27-2005, 04:14 PM

On the flop, you have nothing more than a draw to half a pot. With this in mind, check calling is the way to go.
Remember someone has a better low than you, that guy probably has a backdoor flush draw also. It's called a freeroll, don't let him earn money by raising it up.

Drizztdj · #8 10-27-2005, 04:20 PM

4) Call the river, most likely he had A2 with the nut low and a freeroll (as Ribbo pointed out) to the high.

Buzz · #9 10-27-2005, 06:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like raising the turn for value here, as Hero has also picked up the nut flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jedi - It's true that Hero has picked up the nut spade flush draw. However, out of the 44 unseen cards at this point, only 7/44 enable the spade flush without also pairing the board. On the other side of the balance, 22/44 of the remaining cards are bad for Hero, possibly enabling a better hand for an opponent. (The other 15/44 cards are good for Hero, making a total of 22/44 good cards and 22/44 bad cards for Hero).

Hero thus seems to be (at fist glance) getting 3 to 2 fresh money odds on an even money proposition. However, I think that's deceptive. Without a non-pairing spade on the river, Hero may be quartered for high (with an opponent, or maybe even two opponents, having 86XY for high. Because of this quartering/sixthing effect, Hero is actually getting about 2 to 3 fresh money odds on an even proposition. Considering that Hero has two sixes, this is perhaps closer to even than 2 to 3. Let's say it's somewhere in-between even and 2 to 3. And if Hero's bet knockes out an MP2 who is no threat, then Hero is getting less favorable odds than that.

The point is, Hero doesn't actually have as favorable odds to bet as it might at first glance appear, and might even have unfavorable odds to do so.

In addition, Hero, by raising, if anyone puts him on the nut flush draw for the raise, may end up winning less on the river if he does make the spade flush.

However, raising here isn't terrible. In my mind it's very close between raising and just calling.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

benwood · #10 10-29-2005, 03:43 PM

Buzz, I learned some good stuff from your excellant analysis on this hand. Thanks. Ben