top pair weak kicker

[rjc199]

I really don't know how to play these types of hands. Guidance please. Folding can't be right with top pair and backdoor draws in a large pot. But what do I do? If I bet and get raised I don't know how to play the rest of the hand.


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, SB folds, Hero folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

River: (10 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14 BB, between MP3 and CO.</font>

[zram21]

Folding was certainly not the right thing to do on the flop. I assumed as I was reading through it that you checked the flop with the plan of check raising a late bettor.

I wouldn't classify an 8 as a weak kicker. It isn;t a great kicker, but it will hold up enough unimproved to make it profitable. I would check raise the flop here and lead out on the turn.

[meep_42]

Unless you were expecting a c/r here, I think you have odds to see if you hit a set or 2-pair (or your backdoor flush draw) on the turn. (getting 9:1 on a call, with 3 to act behind him on a 9:1 to hit one of his 5 outs (2 Ks, 3 9s))

I don't know if 8:1 would be good enough for me to call the river, though, but if you stayed through the turn you have to call down the river, at the very least.

-d

[Sent]

I think you should've c/r this flop. Led the turn. And then said hello to the pot on the river hehe

-Sent

[dfscott]

I'm betting my top pair on the flop, even if I do have a bad kicker. People will bet middle and even bottom pair, so it's too early to worry about being out-kicked. If I'm raised, I'll back off and call down.

As big as this field is, it's possible that there's another nine out there, but I think there's a decent chance that you'll split this on the river or even win it outright.

[afk]

I'd probably bet it, but when you check and it comes back to you, you need to raise.

[zram21]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you were expecting a c/r here, I think you have odds to see if you hit a set or 2-pair (or your backdoor flush draw) on the turn. (getting 9:1 on a call, with 3 to act behind him on a 9:1 to hit one of his 5 outs (2 Ks, 3 9s))

I don't know if 8:1 would be good enough for me to call the river, though, but if you stayed through the turn you have to call down the river, at the very least.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget the odds to hit your two pair or trips on the turn. If you aren't going to check raise this flop you have to at least bet out. Hero has top pair with a back door flush draw on an uncoordinated board. He likely has the best hand on the flop.

The call on the river with the 3rd nuts is a must.

[rjc199]

Ok, so please rank my flop options in terms of EV (estimated):

1) bet out
2) check-raise
3) fold = 0 EV

Actually in this hand when I checked the flop I thought about check-raising when it got back to me, BUT for whatever reason the MP bet didnt' seem like the right place for me to CR. If it was a LP bet I would have CR'd but I just chickened out (prolly a rationalization for being weak tight).

[LowDown22]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm betting my top pair on the flop, even if I do have a bad kicker. People will bet middle and even bottom pair, so it's too early to worry about being out-kicked. If I'm raised, I'll back off and call down.


[/ QUOTE ]
I also have trouble playing these types of hands, especially if we didn't have the backdoor flush draw. Since you advocate betting the flop, at what point do you begin to worry about your kicker? And would you bet this flop if we did not have the backdoor flush draw, or had something like K5o in the BB instead?

[zram21]

Well both betting out and check raising this flop are +ev. Check raising should help thin the field with 3 players still to act behind you and if any of those remaining 3 players have a gut shot or bottom or middle pair (such as the case 9) then they no longer have the correct odds to draw to their outs.

So I would rank them

1. check-raise
2. bet out
3. call (after you had already checked)
4. fold