|
|
|
|
#1
08-30-2005, 04:41 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: I wait until the turn, but now I\'m confused
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Here is a classic thread about this very topic... POLL: 99 overpair - flop decision Read what StellarWind and Chris Daddy Cool had to say and you will become a better player. [/ QUOTE ] I've never actually seen that post before, and it's convinced me that we should just raise the flop here. But doesn't that logic invalidate virtually every case of waiting until the turn to raise? [/ QUOTE ] I'd love to see a discussion of what conditions the people advocating a flop raise feel are necessary for "waiting until the turn", because with 88 it seems like you'd have an even bigger equity edge change depending on the turn card then you would with the TT from the SSH hand. It would also be nice to hear if people disagree with raising the turn in the TT SSH hand, or if they agree but see some differences in this hand versus that one that swings this to a flop raise. Someone earlier already made the point that by playing the flop passively, you run into more of these difficult decisions on the turn. 
|
|
#2
08-30-2005, 05:09 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I wait until the turn, but now I\'m confused
Typically waiting for the turn to raise for value is not a very good idea. It simply backfires too often and you leave too much money on the table when you have the best of it.
When it usually works best is when the pot is quite large and waiting until the turn increases your chances of being able to protect your hand and win a very big pot. Think in terms of odds you will be able to present the field with if you wait. So if a flop raise will offer the field 20:2 but waiting until the turn will offer them 12:2 it's worth tha gamble that the flop raiser will be checked to and then bet again with a ahand you beat. Usually you should have a good hand and good relative position to the flop bettor. In this hand we have a big pot (not that big though) but terrible relative position. When we just call the flop all kinds of things can screw us up. This hand is a classic example of what can happen that might lead us to fold the best hand in a big pot (a terrible blunder BTW). Keep in mind that BB's bet might not be a bluff if he puts SB on overcards and he has something other than the trips he's representing. He might think his 66, 55, A2 or A7 is good here and you fold the best hand fearing your behind at least one of them. Other things that frequently happen is that even if your plan works and SB bets and you trap the field you then get 3-bet on an expensive street by a hand that has you drawing to 2-outs. I'd rather have a better sense of this on the flop than the turn. As Aaron said if you never waited for the turn it wouldn't be much of a leak as the circumstances it's correct for are quite rare. Unless you are confident you should wait for the turn just raise the flop for value if you think you have an equity edge.
|
|
#3
08-30-2005, 05:20 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I wait until the turn, but now I\'m confused
Hey droolie I didn't see a post by Aaron in this thread or the link you said and I'd like to read more about this statement:
As Aaron said if you never waited for the turn it wouldn't be much of a leak as the circumstances it's correct for are quite rare. Unless you are confident you should wait for the turn just raise the flop for value if you think you have an equity edge. Was this a recent discussion or something that was posted a while ago? Thanks!
|
|
#4
08-30-2005, 05:31 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I wait until the turn, but now I\'m confused
Oops I thought it was this thread....
waiting until the turn....yet again
|
|
#5
08-30-2005, 05:31 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I wait until the turn, but now I\'m confused
[ QUOTE ]
As Aaron said if you never waited for the turn it wouldn't be much of a leak as the circumstances it's correct for are quite rare. Unless you are confident you should wait for the turn just raise the flop for value if you think you have an equity edge. [/ QUOTE ] I've actually been told this in a post before. I said that I never wait for the turn and was told it won't be much of a leak. However, in SSH, he says "This is a very difficult, but critical section." It seems to me from reading the opinions here that maybe there's too much emphasis placed on this topic in the book.
|
|
#6
08-30-2005, 05:48 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I wait until the turn, but now I\'m confused
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] As Aaron said if you never waited for the turn it wouldn't be much of a leak as the circumstances it's correct for are quite rare. Unless you are confident you should wait for the turn just raise the flop for value if you think you have an equity edge. [/ QUOTE ] I've actually been told this in a post before. I said that I never wait for the turn and was told it won't be much of a leak. However, in SSH, he says "This is a very difficult, but critical section." It seems to me from reading the opinions here that maybe there's too much emphasis placed on this topic in the book. [/ QUOTE ] I think SSH was written to teach how to maximize profits from all small stakes games including loose and wild games where pots are frequently 8-way and more. Play 2/4 at Foxwoods Casino and you'll see this all the time. In those situations it is really important to know this concept because although infrequent the pot you stand to lose is HUGE! These days it seems that most times online you have to play nano-limits to see that many players consistantly seeing the flop and those pots, while large in BB terms, are small in terms of $$. (Before you say it I'm sure you all find great tables at higher limits but the situation is still quite rare and waiting until the turn is very often misplayed and overused. Misapplying it will cost you more BB's than it will save IMO) I rarely encounter situations now where I am in a large pot and think waiting until the turn to raise will maximize my chances to win a pot.
|
 |
|
|
Hybrid Mode
