Good job defending my blind or a shiny new luckbox?

NYCNative · #1 07-04-2005, 06:40 AM

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (9 handed) converter

MP3 ($49.25)
CO ($57.40)
Button ($5.95)
Hero ($48.95)
BB ($23.45)
UTG ($42.10)
UTG+1 ($15.65)
MP1 ($26.55)
MP2 ($17.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 raises to $1, 3 folds, Button calls $1, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50.

Flop: ($5) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $5, Button folds, Hero calls $5, BB folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: ($15) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP1 raises to $10, Hero calls $5.

River: ($35) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $11, MP1 calls $10.55 (All-In).

Final Pot: $56.55

---

MY LOGIC:

I was happy with the PF call - it was only a minraise and I was pretty sure that BB would complete and UTG+1 would call making it a five way pot. $.75 to win $5? I'd do that with a lot of things. And these were soooted!

The flop: I'm not sure about whether calling was a good move. Although the flop was pretty good, it was not perfect and there were players left to act behind me who could have raised. Even though nobody did, I was still calling a pot-sized bet on a draw to only the third best flush or a gutshot draw to a straight or straight flush. I'm beat now and I might not even be drawing to the best hand.

Did I have enough outs and were the outs strong enough to call this bet with people behind me?

The turn: I was hoping the Ace would be a scare card and making a smallish bet would at best win the pot for me there or if he calls, it's a fairly inexpensive way to see the river after I picked up a couple more outs.

I probably would have folded to a push but he only minraised it so I felt I almost had to call at this point.

The river: I made my flush which gave me the second nuts. I felt that villain, having invested so much into this pot, would call my bet that put him all-in with worse hands than me (I thought he had two pairs or maybe a straight). Since I would have called an all-in and paid off the Ace-high flush, I felt that betting what villain had in front of him was the best move.

How's my line?

fuzzbox · #2 07-04-2005, 06:49 AM

I hate your line [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

I dont have a problem with the call pf - cos the raise wasnt a *real* raise.

Your position relative to the raiser, and the strength of your draw, would make me lead at the pot (say for 4/5). If you check, then you tend to want to call to try to get other people in, if you lead, then they might call you, and pfr might then raise and you can push grabbing all the dead money to add to your equity. Checking and calling is awful here I think.
Turn play is awful, but works out ok because Villain plays even awfuller. Then you hit your card on the river, and villain happily pays off (I would fold, but we would be all-in by then).

Yucky mac yuckerson.
If you play this line often then you lose your flop call and turn small bet very very often (or you call off the rest of your stack in very bad shape).

NYCNative · #3 07-04-2005, 07:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your position relative to the raiser, and the strength of your draw, would make me lead at the pot (say for 4/5). If you check, then you tend to want to call to try to get other people in, if you lead, then they might call you, and pfr might then raise and you can push grabbing all the dead money to add to your equity. Checking and calling is awful here I think.

[/ QUOTE ]So you feel that I was underestimating my draw here, is that it? I felt with that many people in a minraised pot that I could be up against nearly anything so I played it relatively conservatively.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn play is awful, but works out ok because Villain plays even awfuller.

[/ QUOTE ]Please explain how you would handle it. My guess is that villain would have just hit "bet pot" like he did before if I checked, making it a very tough call even with the improved draw.

Putting in the small bet saved me money to see the river and I really wanted to see the river by this point. I don't necessarily think I had a ton of FE, but that was a factor as well - villain could have seen it as a value bet after I hit two pairs or a straight and folded.

Either way, I'd like to know specifically what you would have done on the turn - check-call? And how much would you be willing to call? Or do you just push here and let villain sort it out even though if called you are assuredly a dog?

Finally, for bonus points: What do you put villain on?

wtfsvi · #4 07-04-2005, 07:43 AM

Preflop call is fine.

What is villains raising standards preflop? Is he totally crazy and willing to call a pot sized raise on the flop with AK (gutshot and overcards)? This is really more of an implied-odds board than a board to push around the preflop-raiser, but I still think I'm raising the flop to $16 or so if his raising range is fairly wide and he's able to get away from hands postflop. If he's the calling station/maniac type, I'm calling the flop aswell.

Weak lead on the turn is no good, but what you should be doing is tough to say without knowing anything about villains preflop raising ranges, postflop aggression (and bet sizes), willingness to lay down a hand like KK to an open push on this turn and so on.

NYCNative · #5 07-04-2005, 07:58 AM

No reads although that will change once I start getting in a lot moe hands since I am using PT now.

The donks at the levels I play have a tendency to minraise with QJo, reraise big with pocket 9s and limp with AKs. So I would put a minraiser sans a read on a weak hand.

TreyOfLight · #6 07-04-2005, 09:46 AM

With a draw this strong and villain having only 1.3x pot after the flop action, I'd just push then. You're 45% against two pair! You also need him to fold the nut flush draw.

If you call and he pushes the turn, you'll have to fold and that would be a waste.

purerealm · #7 07-04-2005, 02:45 PM

Hmm I don't completely understand the concept here. Under what conditions do you push with a jack high flush draw on the flop?

PokerFink · #8 07-04-2005, 03:06 PM

Trey is 100% correct about this hand. Let me elaborate on his thinking.

The major problem you face on the flop is that there are two players left to act after you that could have a nut draw. MP1 could also have a nut draw. You have a big draw yourself, but only one of your outs is to the nuts, so you want to do everything possible to fold out a nut draw. And since MP1 and the two players acting after you all have short stacks, you can freely push all-in and just accept the results if someone calls.

On the turn, I like your idea to semi-bluff the ace. However, the size of your bet is incorrect. When you pull a move like this, you NEVER want to put yourself in the position of having a borderline decision if villian pushes.

With your bet, if villian pushes all-in you will be getting about 2.6-1 to make the call, which is a fold by a small margin. Instead of betting $5, you want to either: A) bet enough that you will call the push, or (B) bet a little bit that will be an easy fold if villian raises (an option of stacks are deeper). Since villian's stack is short, go for the first option and just lead out strong with a push.

PokerFink · #9 07-04-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm I don't completely understand the concept here. Under what conditions do you push with a jack high flush draw on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all he has a gutshot as well. That's twelve outs, one of which (the nine of hearts) is to the nuts.

Since you have twelve outs, you are basically a coinflip against any hand except a set and a nut draw. You won't fold out a set, so if someone has a set then that just sucks.

But you CAN fold out a nut draw with a push. The idea is either to take it down on the flop with a push, or to get into a coinflip with something like TPTK. Since there is dead money in the pot and a push has a lot of fold equity, a check/raise all-in is the best option. If someone calls, it's probably a coinflip and you just live with the results.