Cutting a deal

[cferejohn]

As I've started to play in more live low-ish buy in tournaments, I've noticed that chopping towards the end of these tournaments (almost always the final 2, if not earlier) is pretty standard. Anyway, last night, I'm in the final 4 of the Garden City $40 spread limit rebuy tournament and the following situation comes up:

4 players left, all have between 2.5 and 3.75 BBs left. I'm in 2nd and the blinds just past me. Myself and the shortest stack (who is about to take the BB) are the most aggressive players at the table (and thus in this situation the 'best', imho). I'd just doubled up off of the shortstack (his 66 v. my 99). Final places pay something like:

4th - 800
3rd - 1000
2nd - 2100
1st - 4100

The idea of chopping 4 ways (~2000/each) is brought up. Given my position and stack, it seems like my EV *might* be slightly higher if I play on, but a) everyone else had agreed and who am I to be a jerk about it and b) the variation at this point is so huge as to be a crapshoot.

I took the chop. Would anyone else have haggled for more (I don't think the players would have gone for it). Fwiw, top three places (determined by chip position) also got the right (non-transferable) to enter a cash-added tournament on April 3rd, so I got that, but I can't go (I asked the tournament director if I could give it to the short stack as part of the deal, but he said no).

[curmudgeon]

Talk deal when you are about to get the blinds. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
You have the chips [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img], take the free look at a couple more hands.
Given the chip positions I would prefer a 3way deal.
Perhaps 1 player will go out in the next 2 hands.

[Toro]

I would have taken the chop as it guaranteed you what in effect was 2nd place money. Considering the stack sizes and the fact that it was as you said, basically a crap shoot it was a good deal. And then if you still wanted to go shoot craps after the tourney . . . .

[SossMan]

Unless you absolutely need 2K for rent/alcohol/hooker, I would have waited one more orbit. Chances are pretty good that one of the shortys will bust out, thus giving you another $800 to chop 3 ways. Or you may pick up a monster and use your big stack to give you some more room to negotiate.
All in all, because of your position (and *not* your stack size) I would hang on for a couple more hands to see what develops. However, something to consider is if the others will be willing to deal later if YOU don't take this deal now. May or may not be a factor.

[Guy McSucker]

One point that is seldom made, because we're all so cutthroat [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], is this. If you're playing this tournament regularly, you will be making the final regularly, and probably be up against the same opponents pretty regularly too. In that case, agreeing this deal is a good idea, because then next week when you're the short stack, they'll agree a similar deal for you, which will be very favourable.

You're probably taking a small hit agreeing this deal, but I think you can make it up in future tournaments.

Guy.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
However, something to consider is if the others will be willing to deal later if YOU don't take this deal now. May or may not be a factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is essentially why I took it. Oh, I realized I misspoke before, btw, the small stack was about to be UTG, not the BB.

Maybe it was unclear from the original post, but the stack sizes were all pretty close. I had a leg up because I had just gone through the blinds, but I think the big stack (who was about to take the SB) would still be bigger than me after the next hand. If any of us had doubled up a smaller stack, it would have meant that we'd be all-in in our next BB.

Also, I had to pay the rent for my alchoholic hooker. Oh, and your mom says hello. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[cferejohn]

That's a good point Guy, and it is a tournament I plan to keep playing in. At least one of the final four I'd seen there several times before (and several of the other final table participants who were still watching the game are there nearly every week).

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention: at this point it was approaching midnight and I had to be up at 4:30 AM this morning. That definitely figured into my thinking as well.

<shameless plug>
Why did I have to be up at 4:30 AM you ask? I do a radio show at KFJC, 87.9FM, every Tuesday morning from 6-10AM. Station comes in all over the SF bay area *except* in SF itself, but you can get to the netcast at www.kfjc.org. The show is "The Devil's Aquarium" and my name is Stingray.
</shameless plug>

[Greg (FossilMan)]

If you're more skillful than the average player who makes it to the deal-making stage, then doing it every time will HURT you in the long run, not help you. While it's true that this kind of deal is good for you when you're the short stack, it will still be -EV for you overall, compared to playing it out each time.

That's not to say you can't do it, and reduce your variance, but it won't increase your long term EV to always make the deal (if you're better than them at playing it out).

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're more skillful than the average player who makes it to the deal-making stage, then doing it every time will HURT you in the long run, not help you. While it's true that this kind of deal is good for you when you're the short stack, it will still be -EV for you overall, compared to playing it out each time.

That's not to say you can't do it, and reduce your variance, but it won't increase your long term EV to always make the deal (if you're better than them at playing it out).

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Greg, to be honest, I'm not sure how much 'better' than anyone someone can be in this situation. At least one of the other players was, more or less correctly, pushing with any reasonable hand, and the other two players were starting to pick up on it. I'm not sure how much of an advantage I had from an ability point of view, if any.

[Stoneii]

I read an article on this a while back (can't remember the author). Anyway, he suggests that to avoid being the voice of dissent when all other players have agreed to a chop, tell the tournament Director BEFORE the tournie begins your stance on chopping.

Apparently he's then obliged to announce there has been a pre-tournie objection to chopping by one of the players before the subject comes up (I guess if you're still in) and that saves you appearing like the %^&* [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

That said, maybe the article was refferring to big time games and directors of small buy-ins don't know this and may just point the finger anyway when it comes up [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

cheers

stoneii