Double Up or Steal? Short Stack play

[Peter H]

I have been debating w/ several ppl about how to play Big hands when u are very short stacked. If i have around 5 big blinds and i pick up a very good hand (AA, KK, QQ, AKs) is this a situation where I want to give someone a shot at me so that i have a good chance of doubling up?

3 options are to
1)push allin preflop
2) double the blinds preflop
3) limp

if there is a limper the play is just to push allin. however if you are 1st IN... NO LIMPERS

i believe the standard play is jsut to push allin, but if i have around 5x the big blind then i will likely steal and not have another chance as good as this to double up since i will always push or fold.

the play i have been making lately is to raise the minimum so that i very often get action from the big blind or some other big stack.

if we are not close to the money yet, then is this an acceptable risk to try and double up and get back into decent chip position? i believe YES, but most others ive talked to think its just best to push allin regardless and hope to get a call. My goals are pure +EV so i nearly always go for the win instead of going for just placing.

thanks,
pete

[Peter H]

does anyone think risking ure stack to double up is valid?

i mean u are already super short stacked and if u wanna win u have to double up sometime... so now is ure best chance isnt it?

pete

[gcDanno]

Well, if you don't push all in, then you risk what I did yesterday in a 600 fpp game at Stars, and will never do again. I was short stacked, about 5 times the blinds. I limped in with KK. 5 callers, and the flop was 99x. I raise all in, and lose to a 94 in the big blind. You have to bet all in here. As a short stack, you are very likely to be called by at least 1 if not 2 big stacks looking to feed on you.

Easy push (from now on for me anyway).

[dundee197]

IMHO, how you act has a lot to do with your position. If you are UTG or UTG+1 I think it's an easy push. Put all your chips in and hope for a call. Lots of times, someone in late position will call with a mediocre hand like Ax, KT, QJ, etc. because they think you may be desperate to act before the blinds hit you. I'd still push in middle position as there are still a number of stacks that might be tempted to play with inferior hands.

If, however, you are on the button or one right of the button (folded to you), you might consider a min raise here to get some action. I'm not sure if this is the right play with AK (I'll probably push AK in LP), but if I have KK or AA, I want to let the blinds in for relatively cheap and hope they hit a piece of their hand and then procede to double me up. In my experience, going all-in in late position usually just gets the blinds. People recognize you have a few more "free" hands before you have to commit chips, and won't see this as much of a desperation play as they would if you were in EP.

-JD

[all_aces]

"the play i have been making lately is to raise the minimum so that i very often get action from the big blind or some other big stack."

The big blind or big stack would have to consider themselves committed to calling your all-in bet on the flop if they call the mini-raise preflop. Eg: Blinds are 50-100, you have 500 and raise to 200 in MP, just the button calls. There is now 550 in the pot, and it only costs the button 300 to see all 5 cards of the board.

IMHO, any player worth their salt is going to take the time to look at the size of the mini-raiser's stack, see that it's only 500, and if they call they are essentially calling a 500 total bet, since that's what it will 'really' cost them. That being said, any big stack with a decent holding will likely set you all-in preflop, which is what you want with AA, KK, QQ, AK.

I guess my point is that the mini-raise shouldn't necessarily entice people to call, since most know that they're up against 500 to play. For someone to fold to your 300 all-in on the flop, they'd either have to be severely short-stacked themselves, or they'd have to miss the flop in a severely grotesque way.

Regards,
all_aces

[Girazze]

I think the "limp in" in EP was the mistake in Danno's hand. With a strong hand, in EP, need to push. You have lots of folks yet to bet and you will certainly get one of them to call. I see the "limp-in" in late postion if there is not much action. EP gives you no chance to see action so you have to make it yourself instead of taking the chance of a bunch of limpers coming in and making a hand such as they did with the 94 on the 99x flop. Position is very important, even with a short stack, to get the best value. Especially when you may not have a lot of hands left to get a nice hand you can get value from.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

If you really think it's that likely that they'll all fold if you raise all-in right now with KK, then why is it that you didn't raise all-in the prior hand and steal those blinds? Or the hand before that? I mean, if they're going to fold frequently, then steal more often, and double up by stealing the blinds a few times. If they're not going to be that tight, then go ahead and raise all-in now with your big hand, and figure on getting called.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Peter H]

well id say i will get called 1 in 5 times... which too much to steal w/ rags.

but 4/5 times i will only steal the blinds and miss a big chance to double up.

pete

[Peter H]

very insightful post... this is a very good point i had not really been considering but position may very well play a big role here.

the problem i still face is that when i go allin utg i still wont get called enough( i estimate 1/5 times) so that means 80% of the time i will have missed my big chance to double up.

peter

[Peter H]

i disagree... i would say most players will call a 2x big blind raise MUCH more often than a 5x big blind raise even if the raiser is short stacked... especially out of the big blind where they can push allin b/f i have a chance to act and perhaps make me fold on the flop.