200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
If this does somehow get to showdown the villain will likely start 4 betting most everything she steals with to take back the initiative, or she will start playing back harder post flop. Is this good or bad for you? Do you then 5 bet sometimes to sieze the initiative again?

[/ QUOTE ]

All this confusion over "the inititive" stems, would argue, from the fact that players have come to view "having the initiative" as meaningful the way "having position" or "having pocket aces" is meaningful. They feel that the initiative somehow makes it more likely that you will win the hand.

I agree that in practice, there is some truth to this. People tend to play suboptimally when they do not have the initiative, in that they often check to the guy with the initiative. Also, most players prefer to play their big hands very straightforward preflop, leaving their only deceptive option the "raise with crap" option. In this sense, having the initiative is the only way they can win with mediocre cards, because they will always have the initiative when they have big cards.

Open your mind to the idea that you don't have to 3-bet your big hands every time. You don't have to check to the raiser when you flop top pair. Imagine how your opponents are going to respond to that. You'll find that there are only two possibilities:

1. they give you so much action on your good hands that you don't need to win with the weak ones

2. they start respecting your bets even when you don't have the initiative. Suddenly, you don't need the initiative to make a bet and take down the pot.


There's another possibility, which is that your donk bets don't respect early and you know this, so you only donk your good hands and crush them. Then they start catching on and start folding, so you change gears and crush them even more. With the constant turnover in typical games these days, being a player who goes against the tide and does a lot of donking with good and bad hands alike could be very profitable. Your opponents will not have a lot of experience with this strategy.

good luck.
eric

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi BK,

I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.

I don't like your flop aciton, either. 3 bet and lead the turn. Then, call if raised. I'd check call any river, unless it's a non-spade K. A non-spade J is closer.

One main problem with being out of position in headsup battles is you don't get that bet on the end that you can often get in position. Too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This pre-flop logic makes 0 sense. Ok, so she's raising shittons of hands and respects him, lets get her to fold A-2-A9 on boards that dont hit her.

[ggbman]

I like this a lot. Her turn raise can very easily be 99-TT with a spade for free showdown. Fold to a 4 bet obviously.

[J.A.Sucker]

The person who wins most pots when it goes miss-miss is the person with position, period. KJ has little showdown value, and 3 betting makes the pot bigger. Ironically, by doing what you suggest, you make it harder for her to fold on the flop or turn when it is missed around. Why would you build the pot up with this hand? Look back at Steve G's hand against Mimi Tran and think about it. Similar thinking applies here.

[Lestat]

Like the 3-bet pre-flop. Also like the stop 'n go. The 3 bet on the turn is up to you. I certainly don't find too much fault with it, particularily if you're setting up for future play. I think I usually prefer to call the turn raise and lead a non spade on the river though.

[golferbrent]

I love the insta 3 bet b/c it signifies a lot of strength here and that is what you need. Besides I think there are a lot of holdings here that you are still ahead of.

In addition, I think that the 3 bet preflop is a good play as well. I see no reason to not 3 bet her here if she is opening as often as you say she is. Irregardless of the outcome of the hand I think you played the hand as well as you could.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">I love the insta 3 bet b/c it signifies a lot of strength here and that is what you need. </font>

Why is signifying strength important with top pair/2nd best kicker on this board? What hands will fold that aren't supposed to? I don't see many hands that will be lured into making a mistake.

btw- I'm not saying 3-betting isn't good, just that you confused me with the importance of signigying strength comment.

[golferbrent]

I agree... probably not important to signify strength. My thinking was that the 3 bet is the correct play... but 3 betting after thinking about it... does not feel correct. 3 betting as a reaction to the situation probably means that it is the most correct play, instead of taking the time to convince yourself.

My thought was probably more for internal thought purposes as opposed to outward display and consumption.

[bicyclekick]

she folded her A8 on the turn to my 3 bet.

Usually this 3 bet is bad but it was one of those "i was there" 3 bets that 'fealt' like the right play. Dunno how I can feel that but it just seemed right.

[limon]

exactly why 3 betting the turn is a bad play.