Party 2-4

[CJC]

Hello,

You do understand the concept that if you know your raise wont get the desired results ( limiting field ), you are just making the pot all that much bigger.. therebey enticing your opponents to play much more correctly on the later streets?

Just something to think about.

I am not saying don't raise. but with tens it is suicide. Aces and Kings.. fine.. Tens needs to be played much more creatively and cautiously in these games, because they are about as good as deuces in a multi-way looossy-loose game.

CJ

[MRBAA]

We all have our irrational areas, but I have no big problem limping my tens then folding them on fourth for one bet -- even though I might be folding the best hand. I think you are giving up too much by just folding because you don't like the way this hand (or others like small three flushes with two of your suit dead, or live 89T str8s) plays.

I do remember a 3-6 hand i played at your table months ago where you raised a pretty obvious made flush on sixth street (and got three bet) with Aces up -- perhaps an example of the getting pissed off when you get run down.

But good players will get run down more often than bad players, because our starting hand requirements are higher. In the end, your long-term results should be positive -- you just have to accept that the short-term can be a bitch, and focus on making correct plays in each situation, I think.

CJ -- July 29 is looking like a possible poker day. I'll let you know!

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
your raise wont get the desired results ( limiting field ),

[/ QUOTE ]

It may not make anyone who already limped fold, but it may prevent another limper.


[ QUOTE ]
therebey enticing your opponents to play much more correctly on the later streets?

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This goes both ways. If thier chasing is now correct because the pot is bigger, my chasing will be correct if 4th puts me behind. It will be very hard to play T4T correctly on every street in a small pot. There are too many places to fold too much or give too many free cards. So if raising now makes my play easier on later streets great. I extract some value and it becomes harder for me to make a huge error later.


7CSFAP also assumes a bigger ante. So bigger ante plus cheaper BI spells MUCH better immediate odds. So limping make much more sense.



If I limp, how do I play from that point on if I don't hit a T?
-If people hit overcards and bet at me I ?
-If people hit a few suited cards I ?
-If they make an open pair?
-If they show a straighty type board?

And when I do hit a T I might not get any action because it pairs my door card.

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
have no big problem limping my tens then folding them on fourth for one bet

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I can't do.

[CJC]

Hello Again,

I really did miss these spirited debates on the forum. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The original post was not a 'specific hand in mind post', so we can't really analyze some of your questions here.

[ QUOTE ]
It may not make anyone who already limped fold, but it may prevent another limper.



[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, raise if you are in early position. I wont disagree here. but in general ( like I said originally ) raising later with tens in these games is suicide.

[ QUOTE ]
It will be very hard to play T4T correctly on every street in a small pot.

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Actually if you are a good player, it is relatively easy to play that hand, and I sure as hell want a small pot when I am holding it. Since when do we want bigger pots with any pair type hand?

[ QUOTE ]
7CSFAP also assumes a bigger ante. So bigger ante plus cheaper BI spells MUCH better immediate odds. So limping make much more sense.


[/ QUOTE ]

That book was written well before the creation of most of these insane high-ante low limit games. but the CONCEPTS are the same. It really boils down to percentages. What is the ante size in relation to future bet size?? Nothing about actual dollar amounts. The players who can adjust to this are the winners, the ones who can't are the losers. It is really that simple. ( the bring-in size does create other issues.. but I don't want to write a novel here )


CJ

[CJC]

[ QUOTE ]
This is something I can't do

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

So If on 4th an ace bets, a king calls, and whatever else. you are going to call??

Do you like pissing bets away?

CJ

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
It really boils down to percentages. What is the ante size in relation to future bet size??

[/ QUOTE ]


Yep,
And the 2/4 ante is 1/16 a BB and the BI is 1/4 a BB.

But 7csfap was written assuming a game stucture like the 3/6 game (ante 1/12 and BI 1/6)

[jon_1van]

Not then no

-but if an Ace bets and its folded to you and you close the action?
-but if a limper with a 6 door card gets an 8 and bets you?
-but if the BI gets an offsuit 9 and bets when the action hits him?

If this hand gets to 4th 4way (all limps)::

~12% of the time one of your opponents will pair his door card. And you will fold.

Damn near everytime someone will get an over card. And this person will lead out most of the time. When that person isn't you how do you react to the bet?

The 4.7% of the time you make your T you probably won't get paid off because the pot is small and no cares to tangle.

[MRBAA]

Jon, you are way better at math than I am, but I think you are falling victim to one of my biggest mistakes when I play bad -- trying to win pots, not money. LET the loose fish who called with (3A)7 take the pot away from me on fourth when he pairs his door and my split tens don't improve. It's a tiny pot. And I'll have chances to later to find spots to isolate him, even in a loose game.

There's one assumption that's radically wrong in your post -- when I pair my door card I WILL get called, often in two places, even though I double bet. The fact that my opponents do make lots of calling errors is exactly why I limp hands like these. So far, the 2-4 is a real call fest -- as I said at the top, I won two roughly 25BB pots last time I played, when I made pretty obvious flushes against crap for my opponents and got called all the way down in multiple places.