AQ for no raise (MichaelD)?

[Kevin J]

I hate it when a good player says something that I disagree with, because now I gotta spend my time thinking about something I thought I already thought about.

I don't believe I've ever heard anyone profess to mucking AQ for no raise before (until MichaelD did so recently). I also don't think this is a re-hash of Feeney's "AQ test", since I believe that only considered AQ after a raise. I apologize if I have this wrong.

To be honest, I don't believe I've ever played in a game where I even considered mucking AQ first in. That's how clear cut I always thought it was. That's how much +EV I thought AQ had before anyone else has raised pre-flop.

Can anyone (MichaelD?) please explain exactly under what set of game conditions it becomes correct to fold AQo for no raise?

I can see folding for a raise (but not always).

I can see circumstances that might dictate limping rather than raising.

But I cannot see throwing AQ away before any threat of a better hand exists. In any game. In any position. It's simply too good of a hand.

I tend to agree with the person that responded to MichaelD in another post. If the game is THAT bad, it might be a good opportunity to get some other business done or go work on your golf game for the day.

Tight is right and all that. But don't you have to draw the line somewhere? You can't just go around folding profitable hands because they (might) sometimes get you into trouble. Can you? IS it ever correct to fold AQ for no raise?

[Ed Miller]

I have never folded AQ without it having been raised in front of me.

[ZManODS]

Silly to muck AQo with no raise even in EP. As youre position improves it makes that even more ludicrious. Can you list the link to this Michael D's theory.

[Kevin J]

Sorry, I don't know how to do links, but here is the quote:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
PRE-FLOP: Well, let me be the one to start the controversy here; I would most likely have folded the AQ offsuit pre-flop. I simply do not think there are many hands that are profitable long term from early postion, and as far as I am concerned, this is not one of them. I do not feel you are giving up too much by simply folding this hand preflop and not getting involved with it in early position. Obviously, depending on how the game is playing as well as my opponents in the game determines what exactly I do with this and any other hand. However, much more often than not, I avoid playing this hand in early position with regularity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see this until now.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
In regards to AQ offsuit, I do not think the game has to necessarily be that tough to fold this hand in early position. This is a hand that is definitely overrated by a large majority of holdem players; it is ESPECIALLY overrated in early position. It is very common for players to misplay or overplay this hand when the flop misses them, especially since they are usually first to act. When the hand does hit the flop, it can be tricky to truly maximize the value of the hand because of the likely lack of position and because the hand can be very vulnerable to a better holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Ed Miller]

I think he's wrong. People on this board tend to be too tight and I think this is an example.

[astroglide]

i just ran a turbo texas holdem v5 sim for a million hands. the lineup is their default 'tough', which is a game whose difficulty most of us never see. hero is utg with AQo, and is the best ai player tth5 offers.

his default play was to openraise 100% of the time.

he won 66.6% of the time, for a total average ev of +$7.19 per hand in a 20/40 game. changing the raise to a limp he still won 66.6% of the time, for a total average ev of +$6.99, which would show that raising is superior to calling utg even in the toughest of games.

based on these results, it seems that folding this hand in early position without a raise is borderline insane. if anybody really feels it's necessary, i can see what playing a different type of lineup would do.

[Clarkmeister]

"total average ev of +$7.19 per hand. "

What limit?

FWIW, AQo on Pokerroom is +.17 BB UTG.

This is IMO a silly discussion. Its really not close at all.

[astroglide]

edited to state the limit, and also to show the results of calling vs raising

[Clarkmeister]

Cool.

Funny how simulation data runs suspiciously close to live game data isn't it? [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Kevin J]

"This is IMO a silly discussion. Its really not close at all."

I almost didn't bother posting this for fear that people would say exactly what you just did. But I want to know if there are positional complications that I'm not considering. For instance, I'd rarely (if ever) play an ATo. But the reason I don't play it, is NOT because a Ten is such an inferior kicker to a queen when you flop a pair of aces (although it may be).... But because I am much more likely to make top pair when a queen flops, AND it's more likely to hold up.

I know this is basic stuff. But Mike got me thinking about it. And I feel it never hurts to review fundamentals once in a while, no matter how advanced a player is. IMO-