Ethical question/situation about protecting your hand..

davehwm · #1 11-09-2005, 06:23 PM

This is crossposted from a non-poker forum and since I don't play much B&M, I asked for permission to post it here. Here is the direct quote:

"You're in late postion at a 10 handed NL hold em table with about $250 in chips and you're dealt pocket jacks. Someone in middle position with about $400 raises, you reraise, the originial raiser says he's going all in and also makes a motion with his hands. The dealer thinks that the person made a folding motion and takes the person's cards and mucks them. Since it was his responsibility to protect his hand, all you have to do is call and you'll automatically win the pot. The other person said he had pocket kings and you weren't going to call anyway.

What do you do?"

OP also said that the floor was called over and it was ruled that it was re-raisers responsibility to protect his hand (Foxwoods).

Couple of questions:

1) Is this the correct floor ruling? Is the hand actually still live for the guy with JJ? (This could be a stupid question, as I said I don't play B&M).

2) Regardless of the answer to question 1), if you're in this situation, do you call and take the guy's money?

Kaeser · #2 11-09-2005, 06:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) Is this the correct floor ruling? Is the hand actually still live for the guy with JJ? (This could be a stupid question, as I said I don't play B&M).

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me like your hand would be live, hopefully someone else can confirm that.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Regardless of the answer to question 1), if you're in this situation, do you call and take the guy's money?

[/ QUOTE ] What happens if you don't call? You're the only live hand left so I think you get the pot. Regardless I'd give the guy his money back. $400 is just a trivial sum to me and I wouldn't want to be a [censored].

Edit: there are other reasons to give it back as well: don't tap the fish tank, happy table +EV angry table -EV, but I'd do it because it's nice.

davehwm · #3 11-09-2005, 06:32 PM

Right, I guess a call wouldn't even be necessary.

Unabridged · #4 11-09-2005, 06:41 PM

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

TakeMeToTheRiver · #5 11-09-2005, 06:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since it was his responsibility to protect his hand, all you have to do is call and you'll automatically win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of the answer to question 1), if you're in this situation, do you call and take the guy's money?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the dealer interpreted the second player's gestures as a muck and the hand is irretreivably mucked, there is no bet to call. JJ wins the hand on his reraise and the other player's intended all-in never happened. Nothing more should be added to the pot by either player.

magicmntn · #6 11-09-2005, 07:09 PM

The ruling was absolutely correct. However, if I heard the all in declaration I am giving the guy back his chips.

Masquerade · #7 11-09-2005, 07:36 PM

He loses the pot. I wouldnt seek such a ruling from the floor, or complain if they made a different decision, but if that's the decision then I'd keep the money.

mosch · #8 11-09-2005, 07:45 PM

The correct ruling here is that you just doubled through him (assuming you say call, and the players all-in can be verified).

That being said, if I heard the all-in, I'd give the guy a refund. I play for entertainment, and nitting somebody out of their stack isn't my idea of a good time.