Limping QQ under the gun

[mgsimpleton]

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Also, I would like to say that I think a lot of the people responding to this thread need to look in the mirror.

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done. bad hair day, not much else to say.

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I am just getting tired of going through posts with lots of responses thinking it will be an interesting topic only find out 90% of them are by sarcastic assholes.

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this post is worthless.

[Dr. StrangeloveX]

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There are so many good reasons to limp QQ UTG in a deep stacked game... what you want is to isolate headsup AJ, AT, JJ and worse. Now imagine if you limp also QJ, 87s etc; your limp here isn't scary. The deception that comes with the initial limp if the pot preflop builds up to something worthwhile (20-30 BB) is exactly what you want - I'm betting pot when it gets back to me. A short stacked (100BB ish) AK-AJ, JJ, TT is almost always going to push here and put you on TT or worse. If you raise UTG and shortstack pushes - I'm going to have to call unless you know shortstack's pushing range is AA-KK; generally it's far bigger (I see A9 suited; AJ suited pushing here all the time in a 2/5 nl game) and there's a reason why they are shortstacked. This way there is a bigger pot filled with dead money. If it goes multiway and a family pot occurs - see the flop with the 3rd best starting hand in hold'em. Check/bet/call/fold depending on the board - easy.

Now imagine you (standard TAG) raised UTG (7x BB for example) with a stack of 500BB. Someone with 700BB reraises. What now? Without a read this is a clear muck situation. 4/1 dog at worst, flip at best because you've already declared your hand as a premium and now someone that covers you is raising you. If you raise UTG and gets called by tricky deep stake (who would call with AA) - what now? What can you put him on? Rag board can be scary; broadway is scary, a 87, 67, 56, 98, any paired board is scary. You are out of position and you cannot proceed with any confidence and is liable to be outplayed postflop unless you hit your set. Call and hope to hit a set or muck.

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if this is a joke it is pretty impressive

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There are so many good reasons to limp QQ UTG in a deep stacked game... what you want is to isolate headsup AJ, AT, JJ and worse. Now imagine if you limp also QJ, 87s etc; your limp here isn't scary. The deception that comes with the initial limp if the pot preflop builds up to something worthwhile (20-30 BB) is exactly what you want - I'm betting pot when it gets back to me. A short stacked (100BB ish) AK-AJ, JJ, TT is almost always going to push here and put you on TT or worse. If you raise UTG and shortstack pushes - I'm going to have to call unless you know shortstack's pushing range is AA-KK; generally it's far bigger (I see A9 suited; AJ suited pushing here all the time in a 2/5 nl game) and there's a reason why they are shortstacked. This way there is a bigger pot filled with dead money. If it goes multiway and a family pot occurs - see the flop with the 3rd best starting hand in hold'em. Check/bet/call/fold depending on the board - easy.

Now imagine you (standard TAG) raised UTG (7x BB for example) with a stack of 500BB. Someone with 700BB reraises. What now? Without a read this is a clear muck situation. 4/1 dog at worst, flip at best because you've already declared your hand as a premium and now someone that covers you is raising you. If you raise UTG and gets called by tricky deep stake (who would call with AA) - what now? What can you put him on? Rag board can be scary; broadway is scary, a 87, 67, 56, 98, any paired board is scary. You are out of position and you cannot proceed with any confidence and is liable to be outplayed postflop unless you hit your set. Call and hope to hit a set or muck.

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if this is a joke it is pretty impressive

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A 200 nl game. You have 2.2k - 10x the buy-in. A uber tricky TAG's stack just covers yours. Everyone else you cover by 3 or 4x and can positively outplay postflop given position, stack size and solid reads.

Do you want to tango with deep stack here UTG with QQ if he reraises? I know my answer.

It's reasonably advanced theory for a specific situation and specific type of game - deep stake nl when you're a deep stake; in a soft game or if you have a shallow stack, go ahead and raise it to whatever you feel like.

[mgsimpleton]

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It's reasonably advanced theory for a specific situation and specific type of game - deep stake nl when you're a deep stake

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lol. do you give private lessons sir? also will you deep stake me, my br's getting kind of low after all these 2 outers...

[binions]

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(cross-posted in SS NL)

Hi,

I am a member of another poker forum, and I posted a very controversial hand on there that generated a bunch of heated debate.

I claimed that in a deep stack no limit game, it is standard for me to limp a hand as big as QQ under the gun.

Before I divulge into reasons, I just want to hear some thoughts here. Can this be right? Or is it always wrong? etc.

Thanks,
Aseem

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In cash games (and early in tourneys), I open limp in early position with virtually every hand I decide to play.

If I get raised, then I make a decision whether to call, raise or fold. With any medium pair (QQ-88), I will call that raise if I have the implied odds to flop a set.

[AZK]

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[BobboFitos]

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Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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nh

...

Dogs are good and the ox is slower but the earth is indeed patient.

Did I make sense there or just make a smartarse non sequiter that I'm sure, enriched everybody's lives?

Feel free to share with the forum the blindingly obvious theory that means you should raise UTG with QQ that is far more +EV than occassionally stacking JJ, AJ, AT, TT (or worse).

I'm by no means claiming that what I believe is "correct" poker, but I would love to hear a proper counter-argument than "QQ = big hand; big hand = raise regardless of position".

[mgsimpleton]

um there's something to be said for the fact that raising utg with qq does not require you to lose 500bb's ifyou flop an overpair to someone else's set outof position. also your statement about it being advanced theory that deep stack poker plays differently than small stacked poker is ludicrous. some people in this forum have played poker once or twice, so you may want to tone down the pedantic crap, especially when you make generalizations that often do not apply.

[Dr. StrangeloveX]

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...

Dogs are good and the ox is slower but the earth is indeed patient.

Did I make sense there or just make a smartarse non sequiter that I'm sure, enriched everybody's lives?

Feel free to share with the forum the blindingly obvious theory that means you should raise UTG with QQ that is far more +EV than occassionally stacking JJ, AJ, AT, TT (or worse).

I'm by no means claiming that what I believe is "correct" poker, but I would love to hear a proper counter-argument than "QQ = big hand; big hand = raise regardless of position".

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QQ=pair=raise regardless of position