clash of the titans

haakee · #1 12-19-2003, 04:33 AM

bad beetz and I were together in a very juicy California 20-40 game (think 5 people seeing the flop for 2 bets each somehwhat frequently) earlier this week which suddenly became 5-handed due to lobbyers. It was folded to beetz in the sb and he looked at me and said, "chop?" I scoffed and said, "No chop 5-handed!" The fish quieted down and gaped in eager anticipation to watch the two young white kid "pros" (well, "pros" relative to them anyway) go at it. He raised. I looked down to see J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 3-bet. He called.

Flop was A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He checked, I bet he called.

Turn was 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He checked. His play so far smelled suspiciously like ace no kicker. I checked behind.

River: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. He bet -- very consistent with the way he would play Ax, but I was getting 5:1 so I called.

What do you think?

haakee · #2 12-19-2003, 04:37 AM

Yeah, bad beetz showed A3o and took it down. What do you think of his play? He loves to go into calldown mode with Ax in situations like this. I know this and he knows I know this and I know he knows I know this, etc.

elysium · #3 12-19-2003, 04:47 AM

hi haak
great post. i think bad is good enough to know where he stands with his A, and you'd have heard from it by now. i have you in the lead and missing a turn bet. however, if bad gave other indications outside of how he played this hand on paper, and you had a gut feeling backed by observation that he held an A, then your play was good.

i don't think that you had enough info to put him on that A though, and i think you left a bet or two on the table.

a river check-call is o.k. no matter what the turn action was, if you think that bad would take a shot at you. and that's exactly what i think he is doing here.

Ulysses · #4 12-19-2003, 06:52 AM

Whoo-boy, you guys are crrraaaaaaazzzzyyy!!!!!!!

Your play is fine.

As for his play, he should have bet or checkraised the flop. Since this is just an isolated occurrence and it's not like you guys will be tangling a lot heads-up, I think he should just go straightforward and bet. Having been foiled on the turn by your check, if he were a titan he would have checked again on the river, knowing that you can't resist value betting your non-Ace pair and then checkraise you in his most blufflike manner in a way that you'd have to pay him off.

Anyway, I think it would have been better played by him if it went either:

bet, raise, call. check, check. bet, call. or
bet, call. bet, call. bet, call.

But really, I'm just making up stuff to talk about. There's really not much here besides your smooth check behind on the turn. Calling the river is standard in this spot, since he'd bet a complete whiff as well and maybe value bet an eight. But if you were really a titan, it would have been cool to lay down and say "Ace-three good, young beetz." It's always fun to tell him what he has.

Tommy Angelo · #5 12-19-2003, 09:16 AM

"I was getting 5:1 so I called. What do you think?"

I think you needed 10:1

Ulysses · #6 12-19-2003, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you needed 10:1

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he could have figured out the exact odds he needed by asking young beetz, "Yo, beetz, got an Ace?" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

bad beetz · #7 12-20-2003, 04:38 PM

-I [censored] up the hand, but only a little bit.

-At least I got a call on the river.

-I don't think haak bets the river if I double-check, I know him, and he would against a fish, but he check-check PROBABLY

Ulysses list of optimal plays are not right. There is only one:

Check-raise the flop, bet, bet. There is no way to get more money, protect more. This is the way.

What was going through my head at them time was Clarkmeisters post about revealing you have an Ace by checkraising the flop on this board. But [censored] that, it didn't apply here. I'll check-raise the flop with other crazy [censored] headsup.

elindauer · #8 12-20-2003, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
... He loves to go into calldown mode with Ax in situations like this. I know this and he knows I know this and I know he knows I know this, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given this, you'd have been better off to bet the turn and checking behind on the river. You lose the same when he has Ax, but don't lose the whole pot to somebody who intends to fold but instead catches the free club and wins with some garbage flush.

Generally speaking, heads up, you are ahead here more often than not, and you should bet the turn. There are lots of cards that can make you lose. That said, I admit that I hate betting the turn and usually do so grudgingly when I face situations like this.

Ulysses · #9 12-20-2003, 11:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check-raise the flop, bet, bet. There is no way to get more money, protect more. This is the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. He would smell an Ace and muck on the turn. He's more likely to pay you off if you just bet.

bad beetz · #10 12-21-2003, 03:06 AM

I get two small bets on the flop, and I'm not to upset if he folds on the turn. It's not like I have a monster, I don't mind a fold. I gave him a free card.

However, I agree that bet bet bet and c/r bet bet are the two best options.