JJ on 8 high board. money?

ReadyEddie · #1 11-01-2005, 06:31 PM

Any commens on any streets?

Reads:
UTG: 46/11 over 261 hands. LAP
MP1 is unknown
CO is 23.5/7.75 over 284 hands
B is a total fish 64.4/18.82 over 176 hands

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP1 3-bets, 2 folds, CO caps, Button calls, Hero calls, 1 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (21.00 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, Hero caps, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (19.00 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (25.00 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 28.00 BB.

shant · #2 11-01-2005, 06:35 PM

I think the cap on the flop/bet on the turn is spewing.

W. Deranged · #3 11-01-2005, 06:36 PM

I find a fold on the flop. Barring that, I find a fold on the turn. I think one might argue you can find a fold pre-flop, but it is five-handed.

ReadyEddie · #4 11-01-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I find a fold on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
how? check the flop fold to 2 cold? 3 cold?

W. Deranged · #5 11-01-2005, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find a fold on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
how? check the flop fold to 2 cold? 3 cold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its easy to fold to three-cold at any point on this flop. As played, I think you can fold to the raise and reraise behind you. I think my preferred line is actually to check the flop and probably fold to two cold, check-raise a late position bet, call an early position bet and reevaluate.

FishNChips · #6 11-01-2005, 06:39 PM

Methinks that you ran into AA/KK/QQ here given MP1s continued aggression.

That said, I'm not sure where you can play this differently. PF Cap from CO is kinda scary but I don't know that I can muck JJ in that game.

Leading/capping flop seems right, then leading / calling the raise on the turn and check/calling on the river seems right.

Tough breaking running into a bigger overpair or congrats on beating TT/99 who didn't slow down.

I can't see a different way to play it.
FishNChips

ReadyEddie · #7 11-01-2005, 06:42 PM

good call, i did run into AA and TT.

im still looking for a good line in this hand

pauliewalnuts · #8 11-01-2005, 06:42 PM

Tough hand. I wouldve checked the flop with the intention of possibly ditching the hand if it came back two bets to me. You have to figure with the preflop action that you are behind to at least one bigger pair. Since you bet the flop(which I dont necessarily think is bad), I definitely see no point in capping it when it came back. That seems like spewing. I'd call the turn as well since you picked up a flush draw even though there is a good chance a higher diamond is out there. River seems like a fold, especially since you have to overcall, but you are getting 27-1. Maybe youre up against TT and AdKx about that often, but I doubt it.

W. Deranged · #9 11-01-2005, 06:47 PM

Just to look at this hand a different way:

On the flop, if it's a bet and a raise back to you, you basically face the prospect of having to call down 3 big bets at the minimum to see showdown here, in what figures to be a pot in the 20-25 BB range. So you are getting something on the order of 6-1 to 8-1 on a call down at that point. You are 22-1 or whatever to improve to a set, meaning you have to actually be ahead here something on the order of 8-14% of the time AND not get sucked out on in order to merit calling down. Realize that around 24% of the time AK will suck out on you. Anyone with a flush draw has a ton of outs to beat you. You may be dodging Qs and other set cards as well.

So, you are not getting the massive effective odds you think you are. Your hand is not that likely to be ahead as the capping range for most reasonable opponents is dominated by AA, KK, and QQ. Your hand is quite likely to get beat if you are ahead. And you have very little chance to improve.

Sometimes it's better to think about overpairs for what they really are, instead of just as almighty overpairs...

Nick C · #10 11-01-2005, 07:27 PM

You ended up getting 17.5 to 3.5 on your preflop call, and I think maybe that's good enough (I'm not sure). But usually you'll need to catch a set, and you'll have a lot of bets to make up when you do (partly because sometimes you'll lose anyway).

Once the flop comes, I'm not very happy, because I don't have a set.