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Buckmulligan · #1 12-06-2005, 12:58 AM

The villain on my direct right is mysteriously unknown. His [censored] stats won't show up and I haven't seen him play a hand. The guy on his right has been involved in about a dozen hands, seen the flop on about 7 of them, and has yet to bet or raise.

I think all streets post flop are pretty questionable. I suppose my line was a Wa/WB line trying to keep the donk around to add some equity. Versus an unknown, I'm kind of thinking I should have folded that river.

Party Poker 3.00/6.00 Hold'em (8 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 folds, MP1 checks, 1 folds, CO checks, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.00 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.00 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

River: (8.00 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.00 BB.

SCfuji · #2 12-06-2005, 01:03 AM

hey buck

looks good.

#3 12-06-2005, 01:04 AM

you definitely cant fold the river, he could do this with any PP, 5x, maybe even a flush draw with a 9 or an 8.

i think this is pretty perfect.

shant · #4 12-06-2005, 01:05 AM

I raise this flop. Smaller pairs are calling you down, and if they have an A you can get away from it without putting in 2BB on the bigger streets. Also, you'd never play an A like this if you had one, so you're just making yourself more readable by calling down here.

When there is a flush draw on the flop the hand is not a WA/WB situation. You can't fold the river against an unknown.

#5 12-06-2005, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I raise this flop. Smaller pairs are calling you down.

[/ QUOTE ]

The accuracy of the second statement would appear to be the real point of contention here.

fwiw i disagree

shant · #6 12-06-2005, 01:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise this flop. Smaller pairs are calling you down.

[/ QUOTE ]

The accuracy of the second statement would appear to be the real point of contention here.

fwiw i disagree

[/ QUOTE ]
True, sometimes a 5x hand won't look you up, but you would be surprised how much 77 or 99 takes the hand to showdown, especially because I raise these flops without an Ace a lot.

#7 12-06-2005, 01:28 AM

one thing though: lets say sometimes they (5x and PP) call down, sometimes they peel the flop and fold the turn.

when you just call down, intending to bet the river if checked to:

you are guaranteed 2.5BB.

when you raise the flop and then bet the streets and they call down, you get 3BB, 0.5BB better than just calling it down yourself

but when you raise the flop and they peel and fold, you only manage 1 BB, 1.5BB worse than just calling it down yourself.

this means that in order to be a better play, you need to have them call down >75% of the time.

this doesnt even bother to factor in the times the vil has an ace, where we cant lay and lose a lot more than the 2.5BB we would have lost by just calling down to begin with.

shant · #8 12-06-2005, 01:34 AM

When you have AK and this exact action takes place, how do you play the hand? If I raise QQ, AK, flush draws, and flopped full houses on this flop, I am setting myself up to be paid off a lot more. I'm not sure if opponents at this level are paying attention but as you move up this is more and more important.

Also, I don't have much problem laying this down if I'm 3-bet. The times they do 3-bet a 5x hand, a flush draw, or 77 are so infrequent I don't think you need to worry about it. It is unfortunate you don't have a read now, but sooner or later a player making plays like that will make himself known to you and you will be able to take advantage.

SCfuji · #9 12-06-2005, 01:15 AM

shant

do you do this as your default against unknowns? what if they turn out to be a post-flop flush draw maniac or goes crazy with low pocket pairs on paired flops? we only have one overcard to worry about here so i dont really feel our hand is vulnerable. even with hearts we can hit a fat Q of hearts and destroy this guy. if villain checks on the turn or river ill be happy to fire but until then i dont mind being a calling station. am i missing something here that is keeping me from playing 4k/8k with doyle?

Buckmulligan · #10 12-06-2005, 01:21 AM

I think raising the flop for value is almost certainly wrong. My game would be pretty damn aggro if my standard read for an unknown is that they'll call down here with a hand like 66; I'm not buying it.