TP but I cant protect.

silkyslim · #1 12-03-2005, 03:15 PM

Every street debatable. pot is getting big i wanna know how to win it. these guys are fishies, no notes on them.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (15 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 18 BB

#2 12-03-2005, 03:26 PM

I'd probably lead the flop and hope UTG+1 blows the field away with a raise. This board is not scary.

newhizzle · #3 12-03-2005, 03:27 PM

id bet the flop, probably bet the turn, i dont know what im doing if he raises my turn bet, probably calling down

whats your plan if he raises the river here?

silkyslim · #4 12-03-2005, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
id bet the flop, probably bet the turn, i dont know what im doing if he raises my turn bet, probably calling down

whats your plan if he raises the river here?

[/ QUOTE ]
well the only way im ahead is if he has Ax, KQ, or TT and was bluffing at the pot. I dont think he will raise any of these so I would fold.

toss · #5 12-03-2005, 08:40 PM

Were you planning on checkraising the flop? I'd just bet out. UTG may raise your bet.

I'd still 3-bet after it two back to me.

silkyslim · #6 12-03-2005, 10:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Were you planning on checkraising the flop? I'd just bet out. UTG may raise your bet.

I'd still 3-bet after it two back to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
No i wasnt going to c/r. I had a brain lapse and checked to the raiser like a good little fishy. Now that i look at it its an easy flop donkbet.

lilkunta2 · #7 12-04-2005, 01:13 AM

betting the flop would be the best, hoping for an early rasie. if it gets raised, i would just call but then lead out on the turn. if he raises on the turn ( or another player) i think you can fold without to much hesitation. No one would be raising a turn bet with something like QJ which is the next notch below you.

same thing if you bet the flop and don't get rasied. bet again on the turn, then if you get raised its best to fold. if no one raises you on the turn your hand is probably good.

#8 12-04-2005, 02:22 AM

Folding preflop should be a consideration. KJ to begin with is a not a strong hand. Playing it OOP? Even worse.

BWebb · #9 12-04-2005, 03:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding preflop should be a consideration. KJ to begin with is a not a strong hand. Playing it OOP? Even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get 7:1 here, it is an easy call. If it was offsuit, it is an easy fold. Plus, relative position on the raiser is very good should we flop a big hand/draw.

BWebb · #10 12-04-2005, 03:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I'd still 3-bet after it two back to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I initially thought this too but after some additional thought I don't like it.

If we are ahead, we are not going to lose anybody (except maybe the BB) with our vulnerable hand. Say UTG+1 is raising here with AK or AQ, we are not going to lose him or any other overcards with our raise. The others already committed 2 sbs to the pot, so 1 more is not going to do the trick. Therefore, our 3-bet is not going to elimate anyone we would like to.

Now, let's say UTG+1 has a real hand and we are behind. Let's look at the best and worst case scenario with our 3-bet:

1) We lose BB, UTG+1 caps and we lose everyone else. It would appear that this is good for us, but I don't think it is. I think this is one of those situations where getting everyone else to fold increases his equity greatly while only effecting ours slightly. Using pokerstove, I ran the following:

Our hand
4 others with any broadway, any pocket pair and any suited. True, a very wide range but I think it's okay.

I then gave UTG the four likely hands we are behind, AA-JJ. (remember, this is assuming we are behind).

This is what I got-

Agaisnt AA, multiway- His equity 45%, Ours 17%
Against AA, heads-up-His equity 77%, ours 22%

KK, multiway-42/11
KK heads-up-87/13

QQ, multiway-37/18
QQ, heads-up-75/25

JJ, multiway-83/4
JJ, heads-up-96/4

Overall versus those hands, our equity increases from 15% to 20% while his increases from 44% to 80%!

The pot would have to be 40 sbs for the 5% increase to equal our extra 2 sbs invested. Obviously, it is not.

Scenario #2) Our 3-bet doesn't lose anyone. Either UTG caps the flop or raises or donk-bet on the turn, but nobody goes anywhere. We spend an additional 2-3 sbs then we had to when we are drawing to 6.5 outs.

Either way, I don't think our raise helps us when we are ahead or behind. If I am mistaken in any of this, please let me know.