Why should you raise with A2s?

[Stealthy]

I have a copy of the starting hand chart prepared by MEbenhoe a few months back and in the main I like the look of it and will play it until I find my own range. I don't however understand the value in raising with the small suited Aces like A6 - A2 from the CO or button with limpers already in.

I would have thought that the line would be just to limp along rather than raise. Apart from perhaps pushing out the blinds or buying the button do we really have enough equity for this raise? The limpers (either of which could have us dominated) are both coming for the extra bet but on the flop we are hard pressed to continue without hitting one of the remaining 3 aces, flopping the nut draw or hitting our kicker with a backdoor flush or straight. Or are we just hoping to take a raggedy flop down due to our pre-flop raise and position?

I am inexperienced in shorthanded limit play so may be missing something important as I can understand raising from any position as the opener but not with limpers already in.

[einbert]

Choosing to raise here is basically a tradeoff between equity, position and initiative against reasonable players.

Against very loose players, however, you likely have an equity edge. Let;s say that two people limp in front of you that both are way too loose and play 50% of their hands. In that case, you will have an equity edge. You can't really "charge" the BB to come in in this case because he's going to be getting a great price whether you limp or raise, but you can charge the button and SB to come in.

The initiative argument is that by raising preflop, you are able to navigate the hand more easily postflop (moreso against passive players than aggro ones) because of your ability to take free cards, bet for free cards, and bet for free showdowns depending on how the hand plays out.

[ QUOTE ]
(either of which could have us dominated)

[/ QUOTE ]
One key factor here is that they are more likely to raise with hands that dominate us, and more likely to limp with hands that don't like JT, 97, et al.

[ QUOTE ]
Or are we just hoping to take a raggedy flop down due to our pre-flop raise and position?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's more complicated than that. What I'm saying is that having the best position in a threeway pot against passive players is a pretty large benefit. We won't always be betting the flop, although sometimes we will be the flop and turn without any improvement. But what the preflop raise does is it gives us more power through position and more flexibility through initiative so we can play out the rest of the hand more effectively.

[Stealthy]

So if I understand this right it is party about equity (certainly against the poor player who plays too many hands) but mostly about controling the action after the flop.

So if we do pop one in on the flop where we miss and get check-raised by a non-lag player do we peel one off as a matter of course and fold to a turn bet, 3 bet to maintain control even though we are probably behind (perhaps in the hope of firing him out on the double bet turn) or simply fold the flop without a backdoor draw to fall back on?

[DMBFan23]

if there are two/three limpers, I basically always overlimp with A2s-A7s, and A8s-A9s isn't always raised either

[Stealthy]

[ QUOTE ]
if there are two/three limpers, I basically always overlimp with A2s-A7s, and A8s-A9s isn't always raised either

[/ QUOTE ]

So who else raises with small suited aces here and who limps?

[Derek in NYC]

HPFAP discusses some of the disadvantages to raising ace-rag.

[Stealthy]

[ QUOTE ]
HPFAP discusses some of the disadvantages to raising ace-rag.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have that but not read it in a year so will look it up, thanks.

Wondered that myself. After all, if the argument is the Ace is probably best, why not raise the offsuits as well? Someone already spoke to initiative and making the hand easier to play, but I have another take. Well, not another, but added info.

We're said if A2o gets called behind us. We're almost certainly dominated. We're not as sad with A2s because Axs plays well in a big multiway pot. So raising A2s gives us inititive and position when the blinds fold out. If they call, we have a decent multiway hand.

That said, over limp alot myself with them. I was raising, but now I only raise with A8s+ unless I think I can isolate a timid player that plays fit-or-fold. It sucks to be HU with an unreadable call-down fish when you've only got Ace high.

I suspect it's roughly equal EV to raise or over-limp. I can't prove it, but it feels so close that I'd be hard put to criticize either way to play them.

[Stealthy]

Can't raise the offsuits as well, the hand aint great as it is why make it worse by removing the flush draw possibility?

I reckon as a kind of "standard" play you could raise 1 limper but limp if 2 or more. With 1 limper you have a shot at pushing both blinds out and then taking down the pot on the flop or turn if the limper misses. Using your pre-flop raise to get him to fear a strong hand. Against 2 or more you are more likely going to have to show down a hand on the end so perhaps need to be a bit more passive pre-flop.

Thoughts?

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if there are two/three limpers, I basically always overlimp with A2s-A7s, and A8s-A9s isn't always raised either

[/ QUOTE ]

So who else raises with small suited aces here and who limps?

[/ QUOTE ]

I limp mostly