God is Love

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udontknow -
" It is not contradictory for God to be love as well as justice simply because that divine justice was satisfied for the elect on the cross and thus their price is paid."

Justice. We must have justice mustn't we. But scripture also says that it is God's Will that All should be saved, And that All Things are possible with God. The last person to get into heaven will be the last person who cries for justice and insists that someone must go to hell.

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[udontknowmickey]

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udontknow -
"So in short: God Loves elect => elect love God => elect demonstrate love to others AND God hates non-elect => non-elect hate God => non-elect cannot love (biblically) others. Now, God does show a general love towards all creation, for he sends rain upon the righteous and wicked and he lets the sun shine upon them, and this is the general love that we must show to our neighbors and enemies, but this is only so that they may continue to condemn themselves and set themselves on a slippery slope to destruction. (Psalm 73, Romans 12)"

Yikes, what a hellacious hateful religion you espouse. You have taken the Temple Jesus Raised in 3 days and turned it into a Den of Thieves.

PairTheBoard



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What a great way of dismissing any and all arguements. "You aren't really Christian."

If my religion truly is not Christianity, show me how it is not from the Holy Book. If you don't agree with the Holy Book, then disown Christianity yourself, and judge me by what you do believe.

I'm sorry, but as it stands, what offends me the most is when people wrongly preach the Gospel so much that it ruins the message. No one is perfect yes, but when people start claiming that all we have to do is "love one another" then we "know God" I see that as incredibly offensive, and will say that since it contradicts Scripture, it is offensive to God as well. When this happens you are claiming to be a represntative of Christianity when in truth you don't believe in it at all!

Either
A)prove that it does not contradict Scripture in a logically consistant manner

B)disown God's Word and repudiate the claim to Christianity.

C)repent and realize that Scripture is indeed the only infallible rule of faith, and that you have sinned greviously against God in denying it's power and cast yourself down at the foot of the cross where forgiveness is given to all who come.

[udontknowmickey]

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udontknow -
" It is not contradictory for God to be love as well as justice simply because that divine justice was satisfied for the elect on the cross and thus their price is paid."

Justice. We must have justice mustn't we. But scripture also says that it is God's Will that All should be saved, And that All Things are possible with God. The last person to get into heaven will be the last person who cries for justice and insists that someone must go to hell.

PairTheBoard


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No, I am in no position to demand justice. It is God who demands justice. "Vengence is mine, declares the Lord, I will repay" (Romans 12). It is God who demands the guilt to be paid for. It is God's will that all the elect to be saved, and all the non-elect will be cast off into eternal damnation.

He says clearly in Romans 9 that)
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What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

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He endures vessels prepared for destruction so that His glory may be known to those prepared for eternal life. This is the Gospel. This is Scripture. If you want to preach it, preach all of it. If not, deny it for once and for all.

[PairTheBoard]

udontknow -
"To have an unconditional love for all people would compromise justice. "

You know, the golden rule was not invented by Jesus. Neither was his commandment to Love God with all your Might. The really radical thing Jesus brought was the direction to "Love your Enemies" and Forgive them the highest multitude of times. That is what God is like. Did Jesus Hate the Pharasees? No. But he would speak to you much like he spoke to them. They were oh so wise in the ways of scripture as well.

PairTheBoard

[udontknowmickey]

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udontknow -
"To have an unconditional love for all people would compromise justice. "

You know, the golden rule was not invented by Jesus. Neither was his commandment to Love God with all your Might. The really radical thing Jesus brought was the direction to "Love your Enemies" and Forgive them the highest multitude of times. That is what God is like. Did Jesus Hate the Pharasees? No. But he would speak to you much like he spoke to them. They were oh so wise in the ways of scripture as well.

PairTheBoard


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I guess you misunderstood me. It is not I that demands justice, but God.

Romans 2:12 states
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For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.



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God, being a Just God in addition to one of mercy and love demands vengence. This is found and fulfilled only in the cross.

You make the claim that I am being unbiblical, that God would be displeased with what I am saying. I submit again that I am defending Scripture, and if you can prove from Scripture where I am going wrong I will gladly repent and thank you for showing the error of my ways.

With that though, I state that you are the one who is disowning Scripture. I have submitted enough proof already, but you continue to display your ignorance of the faith you claim to hold.

The golden rule was invented by Jesus. It is only out of Jesus that the golden rule has any binding power. Do onto others what you would have them do onto you. Why? Because man is made in the image of God.

John 1:3 states in reference to Christ that: All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

which essentiallly means that through Jesus was everything that had a beginning was made. This includes the "golden rule."

Jesus did not change anything. He came to fulfil the law, not abolish it. Jesus merely reaffirms what the law teaches all along, that we are to approach one another in love and leave vengence up to God.

Leviticus 19:18) "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD"

Romans 12:20) "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this you will heap burning coals on his head."

There were people that Christ hated. He called the Pharisees (because they were perverting the law) a brood of vipers. God hated Esau. God hates the wicked.

God does however provide His Son as an atoning sacrifice on the cross for His sheep that hear his words (Scripture) and know him. Apart from Christ all will die and be doomed to destruction. Once again I entreat you to repent to God and throw yourself upon the cross as the only source of salvation, by faith alone. Apart from Him you will perish.

[PairTheBoard]

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Love for the sake of loving, not because of the consequences one will face if one does not love.

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PTB

[PairTheBoard]

udontknow -
"God, being a Just God in addition to one of mercy and love demands vengence. "

You are very good at dueling scriptures. I cannot match you there, although Jesus could have. But individual chapters and verses must be understood in the context of the Whole. If you are quoting scripture to support a Spirit than runs counter to the Spirit of Christ then the words of Jesus to the Pharasees apply to you as well. The Spirit you convey with your Theology does exactly that and Jesus would have told you that you Do Not Know Him and thus Do Not Know the One Who Sent Him.

udontknow - caps added by PTB
"God does however provide His Son as an atoning sacrifice on the cross for His sheep that hear his words (Scripture) AND KNOW HIM. Apart from Christ all will die and be doomed to destruction. Once again I entreat you to repent to God and throw yourself upon the cross as the only source of salvation, by faith alone. Apart from Him you will perish."

I entreat you to do the same.

PairTheBoard

[udontknowmickey]

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But individual chapters and verses must be understood in the context of the Whole.


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I agree completely.

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If you are quoting scripture to support a Spirit than runs counter to the Spirit of Christ then the words of Jesus to the Pharasees apply to you as well. The Spirit you convey with your Theology does exactly that and Jesus would have told you that you Do Not Know Him and thus Do Not Know the One Who Sent Him.


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How does one know Jesus apart from Scripture? If you agree with me that the only way to know Jesus is through Scripture (which is God Breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness so that the man of God may be prepared for every good work), then I set forth that my theology (as far as it is consistant with the Bible), IS what Scripture teaches.

How do you judge if the "spirit" my teaching runs against the "Spirit of Christ" without knowing what the spirit of Christ's teaching is? Only through Scripture can you do that and I set forth that my theology (as far as I am able) is faithfully derived from Scripture. Is it perfect? Of course not, but I am always open to correction from Scripture and in accordance to Scripture. Once again you claim that my theology subverts Scripture instead of expounds upon it, but yet you do that without proof. If you can prove it I will gladly repent and rejoice that I have been shown the error of my ways. But if my proofs of your own personal twistings of Christ's Words are true (and I feel Scripture backs me up on this) then it is YOU who should repent.

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udontknow - caps added by PTB
"God does however provide His Son as an atoning sacrifice on the cross for His sheep that hear his words (Scripture) AND KNOW HIM. Apart from Christ all will die and be doomed to destruction. Once again I entreat you to repent to God and throw yourself upon the cross as the only source of salvation, by faith alone. Apart from Him you will perish."

I entreat you to do the same.


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Know God... how? Know His Words. I have tried my best to do this and am always open for more areas in which I need to grow, but until you can point me in these directions you are continually making allegations that are unsupported. I encourage you to turn to Scripture and read Psalm 119 and examine yourself if you can make that your prayer. Psalm 119

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udontknow -
"Know God... how? Know His Words. I have tried my best to do this and am always open for more areas in which I need to grow, but until you can point me in these directions you are continually making allegations that are unsupported."

I'm not going to go much farther with you on this. It's up to you to search your own heart.

Matthew 13:23
"But the one who received the seed that fell on the good soil is the man who hears the word AND UNDERSTANDS IT. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

What kind of crop are you producing with Your Understanding of scripture. The Theology of a God of Vengence? A Theology of Hell for all but the Elect? A Theology that Drives people away from Jesus?

Matthew 12:48-50
"Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Yet your Theology condemns to Hell those who do God's will yet don't cow tow to your Understanding of Scripture.

Matthew: 18:3-4, 10-14
He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. WHAT DO YOU THINK? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY OF THESE LITTLE ONES SHOULD BE LOST."

Yet the God of YOUR understanding is Only Willing that the ones he Elects not be lost and has Vengence for the rest. To make matters worse you quote scripture like the devil to "prove it". These Little Ones have angels in heaven who see the Face of the Father far better than you. You then Corrupt them with your Teachings of a Vengeful God who Hates, drive them away from Jesus, and are guilty of exactly that which Jesus admonishes you Not to do in verse 6. You have no idea how many peoples' lives have been ruined by such teachings spewed by self rightous pompous fools sitting on their Thrones of the Elect. I do have some idea. A lot of them are my Friends and Family to Jesus as well.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these".

Your Theology based on Your poor fallible understanding of scripture does exactly this. It Hinders them.

Matthew 23:13-15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

Replace "the law" with Your Understanding of Scripture and the same holds.

John 6:44-45
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."

Is the Father, Your Understanding of Scripture? Or is he Love?

I know you are capable of replying with a ton of counter quotes to protect your precious Theology. But I entreat you instead to search your Heart. For scripture to be edifying it must be understood with a Heart touched by a God of Love. I don't have time to explain to you how every verse of scripture can be understood in a spirit of Love. You need to do that yourself. Maybe you should get your Head out of the Book for a while and put your Heart into the lives of people. Expand your capacity for empathy. Humble yourself like a child and grow in the Light of Life rather than theologizing over words in a book. And become aware of the damage you do preaching a God of Vengence and Hate and the Elected Elite. Christ. Even the Marines know better than to leave one behind.

PairTheBoard

[udontknowmickey]

Once again I am left asking "why?" How am I going wrong? Clearly if Scriptures is so clearly against what I teach and believe please show me! Stop quoting scripture at me specifically and answer the verses I am using to prove my position.

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I'm not going to go much farther with you on this. It's up to you to search your own heart.



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And it is up to both of us to search the Scriptures to determine truth for our hearts can lead us astray. If you state that your heart can guide you better than Scripture in spite of knowing that Scripture is God-breathed, then you are no better than other non-Christians that claim the same thing.

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Matthew 13:23
"But the one who received the seed that fell on the good soil is the man who hears the word AND UNDERSTANDS IT. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

What kind of crop are you producing with Your Understanding of scripture. The Theology of a God of Vengence? A Theology of Hell for all but the Elect? A Theology that Drives people away from Jesus?


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Are you understanding what I'm saying? Are you understanding Scripture. I never claimed Scripture was going to call all, in fact 1 Corinthians states that it is a scent of life to the elect and a scent of death to the dead. In the parable of the wedding banquet, Jesus says at the end: "many are invited but few are CHOSEN." (Matt 22:14)

Examine John 6, after he preaches on the uniqueness of Christ and how no one could come to God unless God calls them, many turned away! (verse 66: After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. )

It is a hard teaching, one through which God will harden the reprobrates and call the elect. I challenge you to walk through John 6 or Romans 8,9 or Ephesians verse by verse and deny that it is God who calls.

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Matthew 12:48-50
"Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Yet your Theology condemns to Hell those who do God's will yet don't cow tow to your Understanding of Scripture.


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My theology (and I will continue to state that it is the Biblical theology until you prove otherwise) states that those who have not been called by God cannot do God's will, except in the limited sense that they are forced into doing everything that God decrees. I say again, I do not have perfect theology, but it is as consistant with Scripture as I have been able to make it and it is continually reforming in accordance to Scripture. If you can point things out where I am inconsistant than by all means do so and quote the verses. If you cannot do so and yet you will not repent when I have shown that Scripture is instead testifying against what you believe, then who is it that is actually doing God's will? Does doing God's will involve ... maybe listening to God's Word?

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Yet the God of YOUR understanding is Only Willing that the ones he Elects not be lost and has Vengence for the rest. To make matters worse you quote scripture like the devil to "prove it".


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And I believe Jesus responded as you should if you believe I am in the wrong, he quoted Scripture back to prove that the devil was taking verses out of context. Do so and stop making accusations that you have not backed up. Show me how my interpretation that of Romans 9 is false, that God does not actually HATE Esau before he was born as He states explicitly.

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You then Corrupt them with your Teachings of a Vengeful God who Hates, drive them away from Jesus, and are guilty of exactly that which Jesus admonishes you Not to do in verse 6.

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Once again you are merely making claims as to what my theology does and using Scripture to say that those verses apply to me without showing me how Scripture explicitly contradicts what I have set forth. Are you saying that when God says "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" in Romans 9:13, He didn't really mean this? Did God lie when He said in Romans 12:19)
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
?

I assert that these verses are part of the infallible revelation of God, and you in your attempts to ignore them or slander me are setting up lofty opinions raised against God, which I will seek out and oppose as in 2 Corinthians 10:3-5.

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You have no idea how many peoples' lives have been ruined by such teachings spewed by self rightous pompous fools sitting on their Thrones of the Elect. I do have some idea. A lot of them are my Friends and Family to Jesus as well.


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Yes, false teachings has led people away from Christ, especially people you know in family, but you have yet to prove if my teaching is false at all. I instead state that your continual resistance to the explicit teachings of Scripture place your own teachings on non-Scriptual grounds.

Are you willing to listen to Scripture or are you like those who Paul warns against in 2nd Timothy 4:3 when he says,

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Yes, culture wants a God that accepts them, that loves them unconditionally, doesn't condemn people to Hell. Your posts , David S.'s posts, other people's posts all testify to this, but this is not God of the Scriptures as I have demonstrated over and over again.

But once again I state that this is not what the Bible teaches and I urge you again to submit yourself under Scripture and be subject to it. You have sinned greviously against God in your irrational holding onto of non-Scriptual ideals and those sins will be called to accounting when the last days come. It is only by repenting and confessing your sins and throwing yourself at the foot of the Cross and accepting Christ's complete and perfect sacrifice for the sins of His people is salvation possible. Anything else will only lead to destruction. Ask and it will be given. Knock and it will be opened. Forgiveness is there for those who ask for it.