Quirky (probably stupid) line

Catt · #1 09-29-2005, 12:51 AM

PFR is like 40/10 and Button is a buddy lister 55/2. I haven't been at the table long, but based on three or four orbits my reads on PFR were: passive post-flop -- happy to bet but shuts down when faced with aggression from others; and on Button were: loves to raise to shut out players behind, even with weak hands, which comprises most of his aggression, gets a bit more cautious without 2-pair or better on the big streets; capable of raising and taking a free card to see the river. To repeat though, these reads are over a short time at the table.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button raises, Hero calls, CO calls.

Should I just jam this flop? Lead and hover over the raise button? C/R and go ahead and Ck-3bet when its raised in front of me? I elected to CC in the hopes of going multiple bets on a big street and worried about striking fear into the other two. But this is such an action flop that perhaps this was silly.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls.

I bet intending to 3-bet and also because I was unwilling to let this get checked through; if PFR had three bet the flop I would have check-raised instead, but, based on my small-sample read, felt the chances were very high that he checks to Button. Obviously didn't work. I have no idea if these guys are savvy enough to realize that my coldcall on the flop and turn lead on this board is cause for tremendous concern.

River: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks . . .

Dammit, I am going to get my multiple bets on a big street no matter what. I figure there's no way this gets checked through and hope that PFR decides to bet and Button calls. They have to pin me as an idiot at this point, and maybe I am in this hand.

I am concerned mostly about the flop play (I'm generally more of a flop pounder), and to a lesser degree the turn play, but looking at the three post-flop streets in sequence it looks very freaking weird.

jph0424 · #2 09-29-2005, 01:11 AM

Looks really weird and I don't particularly like it. There are many cards that can beat you so you have to make the draws pay the max. I bet out on this flop and raise/cap when it comes back around to me. The way you played it was very odd. If you are going to cold call 2 on the flop as you might with the Q or T of spades, you have to check raise the turn. I hate the river also. Bet out and let them call you with worse hands. I see the river getting checked through far more frequently than the turn.

TheMetetron · #3 09-29-2005, 01:27 AM

I see no reason to not jam this flop. And that's the biggest mistake you made in this hand.

#4 09-29-2005, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I see no reason to not jam this flop. And that's the biggest mistake you made in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you guys jam it? Lead or c/r ?

baronzeus · #5 09-29-2005, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see no reason to not jam this flop. And that's the biggest mistake you made in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you guys jam it? Lead or c/r ?

[/ QUOTE ]

i like to check/3bet because i know he'll bet every time with an a/k here.

Catt · #6 09-29-2005, 12:45 PM

Yeah - I think I should have jammed it though I'm not sure if leading or ck/r is better (lean to ck/r). I think there is a decent chance that I get to 3-bet if I lead and only get 2 in if I C/R. The problem with my flop play is that I didn't think through the likely turn action carefully enough. Even though my post-flop reads were a little small-sampled, when I just CC the flop and PFR doesn't three-bet, I really can't risk letting the turn get checked through, since Button is entirely capable of checking through and in any event, a C/R would face PFR with 2 cold -- if he has less than 2-pair this could be really bad. So the f'ed up flop play leads to a very sub-optimal turn play -- would have been great to get in 3 on the turn, but the flop CC and leading a total blank looks so weird I think many players just default to calling as they to themselves "wtf?" Having muffed the flop and not getting what I want on the turn, I was happy with the river check -- I think the chance it gets schecked through is very small. My lead - check line on the big streets looks so goofy that I don't think the PFR, having called the flop C/R and the turn lead, lets this get checked through; even if he checked, I don't think the button lets it go. Anyway, at least one street semi-worked -- river went check-bet-call-raise-call-fold, and PFR showed AQo no spade.

I thought it was an interesting hand to think about because the flop action after I check means that CCing is bad -- if PFR just calls the C/R, we have no sterling obvious lines on the turn that present a high liklihood of getting 2 bets or more from each of them, and on this flop a Button raise is reasonably likely -- unless PFR has flopped a big hand, I'll be put in a very bad spot on the turn to be able to extract bets, and if he flopped a big hand, jamming the flop would have been beneficial anyway. Eh, live and learn.