On consciousness

[gasgod]

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Consciousness, in my mind and by any definition I have seen, does not disappear when dreaming.

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Most people don't consider sleep to be a conscious state. By your definition, are you conscious when sleeping, or just during dreams?

GG

[PairTheBoard]

gasgod -
"There are four components to consciousness: Sensory data input, memory, reasoning (data processing), and data output. When these four components are present, consciousness is the result.

Note first, that this implies that computers are, to some extent, conscious."

I don't think present day computers do anything that could be called "reasoning". They are more like fancy adding machines.

otoh, I'm not sure whether Aomeobas do anything you'd want to call reasoning but I have a hunch they do have a primitive kind of consciousness.

PairTheBoard

[Bodhi]

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However, nobody would seriously argue that dreaming is an example of consciousness, would they?

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I think you are conflating different senses of the word "consciousness." First, one can be conscious in the sense that they're awake, alert, and responding to stimulii. Second, one can be conscious of, a state of mind that is about something. Clearly, dreaming isn't the first, but is the second.

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The fact that we have a strong sense of self awareness in a state where we are clearly not conscious is troubling.

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Your worry comes from the above conflation.

"Consciousness" is a dirty little philosophical changling that you have to be very careful with, and a lot of philosophers introduce terminology here only to avoid misunderstandings.

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There are four components to consciousness: Sensory data input, memory, reasoning (data processing), and data output. When these four components are present, consciousness is the result.

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It's interesting that your statement leaves room for consciousness to be the result of any number of things, because you give sufficient but not necessary conditions.

What troubles me is your term "sensory data" because it implies that sensation is a kind of data like words, code or signaling. These things are truth conditioned, but truth conditions are in a language.

[Shakezula]

A cat chasing a flea: I read somewhere that the flea would perceive the cat as a giant cat-mountain of sorts. That the flea could not perceive the entire cat, because of the difference in size and the lack of sense-mechanisms necessary to perceive all of the sense-data that is available (a flea's sight, smell, etc. couldn't take it all in, so to speak). But the flea would be aware of the cat, conscious of this great cat-like mountain of energy that is directly in his area of attention. A partial and incomplete, from our point of view, perception of the cat. And of course, the cat would perceive the flea in different terms altogether.

Maybe consciousness is the direction in which identity looks. Maybe in dreams, when dreaming of being George Bush or anybody for the matter, you are acting-out a role, playing a part, like an actor in a play: when it's over the actor doesn't insist on remaining in his role (I WILL be Hamlet! I AM Hamlet!) he goes back to his identity of who he is and always was. Maybe you knew in the dream what you were doing but went along with it for your own reasons. Maybe...

This would seem to mean that dreams were important; that they aren't just mental-baloney caused by some body-chemistry (so much garbage needing to be "taken out"); that you are conscious when you sleep, but conscious in a different area of significance; that the sense-data that is all around is organized and experienced in a different pattern; that you are more than you know on a conscious level; maybe...

or maybe, "Row, row, row, your boat..."

[Shakezula]

Truth conditions? What is that concept? And how did such a vague word as "truth" get past an obviously knowlegdeable person like yourself? What is a truth-condition? With all the other dry intellectual ideas that you put forth, much to be admired at times by the way, how did the word "truth" escape your sharp scrutiny? Just wondering: that word seemed to not fit so well with the others. In a way, it was kind of jolting to read it. A jolt is good though...

"...and a lot of philosophers introduce terminology here only to avoid misunderstandings."

or did I catch the pot calling the kettle... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[gasgod]

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However, nobody would seriously argue that dreaming is an example of consciousness, would they?

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I think you are conflating different senses of the word "consciousness." First, one can be conscious in the sense that they're awake, alert, and responding to stimulii. Second, one can be conscious of, a state of mind that is about something. Clearly, dreaming isn't the first, but is the second.

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I am only referring to the first. The second sense is trivial to this discussion, don't you think?


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The fact that we have a strong sense of self awareness in a state where we are clearly not conscious is troubling.

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Your worry comes from the above conflation.

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I don't think so. I am still using the word as sense 1. What I am saying here is that one can be self-aware, but not be conscious. This is opinion, of course, and it stems from my opinion about the nature of consciousness.

It now occurs to me that I may be wrong in saying that one is not conscious while asleep. After all, consciousness is not an all or nothing phenomenon. There are degrees. I am not as conscious when asleep, but there is some minimal awareness. After all, sleep is much different from general anaesthesia. And while I am self-aware in my dreams, it is a much reduced awareness.

OK, now I'm not troubled by self-awareness while dreaming.


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"Consciousness" is a dirty little philosophical changling that you have to be very careful with, and a lot of philosophers introduce terminology here only to avoid misunderstandings.

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There are four components to consciousness: Sensory data input, memory, reasoning (data processing), and data output. When these four components are present, consciousness is the result.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's interesting that your statement leaves room for consciousness to be the result of any number of things, because you give sufficient but not necessary conditions.

What troubles me is your term "sensory data" because it implies that sensation is a kind of data like words, code or signaling. These things are truth conditioned, but truth conditions are in a language.

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All sensory input is ultimately reduced to the firing of neurons, right? It seems to me that this qualifies as data.

GG

[BadBoyBenny]

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Let's examine an example of Non-consciousness, namely dreams. We all have them, but to varying degrees, we may remember them or not. However, nobody would seriously argue that dreaming is an example of consciousness, would they? But here's the point: In our dreams, we generally have a strong sense of self-awareness. I never dream of "being" somebody else, I am always myself.

This implies that self-awareness is not crucial to consciousness, contrary to most views. Maybe self-awareness is simply an illusion, or perhaps it is irrelevant.


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I could take some of your other four criteria, isolate it, and find an example of something not conscious that has that characteristic. That doesn't make that quality less necessary for consciousness.

[Bodhi]

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All sensory input is ultimately reduced to the firing of neurons, right? It seems to me that this qualifies as data.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] The firing of neurons counts as data if you're measuring it in a lab, otherwise I really don't understand what you mean.

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The second sense is trivial to this discussion, don't you think?

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No, because self-awareness is consciousness of oneself.

[Bodhi]

I apologize for the term of art...

To say that a sentence, a signal, or code has truth conditions is just to say that it can be true or false (sensations are not true or false, but sentences are). Regarding truth, vagueness is not a problem I've explored in very much depth, but I don't worry about it because I don't believe in any sort of metaphysical language-world correspondence.

[Scotch78]

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Sensory data input, memory, reasoning (data processing), and data output

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Let's examine an example of Non-consciousness, namely dreams . . . . nobody would seriously argue that dreaming is an example of consciousness

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Someone smart enough to stage this as a joke would have better English, so I'm just going to assume that you have no clue what consciousness.

Scott