Advice for someone willing to put in the time/money

#1 10-13-2005, 01:37 AM

Background: I've been playing poker for about two years and recently have come to the realization that I have some major leaks in my play. In the past year and a half, I've lost a fairly decent amount of money playing online poker. I feel I'm a solid live player (usually win in Vegas/Reno/Tahoe and with friends) - but my online play is clearly lacking something.

I feel I have a decent knowledge of poker - know about the right range of hands to play, realize the importance of position, feel like I make good folds, play the draws when the pot odds are there, try to steal the blinds occasionally and - all in all - feel like the fish always tend to outdraw me. Q7off beating my QQ, AA losing to 25off, etc. seems to happen every night. I realize this is part of the swings and I welcome this action. But, when it happens EVERY NIGHT and is the result of my losses - I start to wonder.

Anyway, my post isn't looking for the "you don't know how to play" or "you suck, just stop" - but more advice.

I have about $5K that I'm willing to call my poker bankroll and willing to invest to get better and hopefully start to turn a profit.

Assuming I control tilting, and play solid poker, is there hope for me?

I guess my questions are as follows:
1) Is there a limit level/online site that you feel is ideal for profit?
2) Are $20/$40 games easily beatable, or does play have to be so close to optimum that it isn't worth trying? Reason I ask - that's where a majority of my losses have come - so I guess if you find guys like me - it's easy to make a profit.
3) What's the best way to find the leaks in my game - would I need to get pokertracker and start tracking hands?
4) If I were to consider today my starting over point - what would be a recommended strategy? MTT? SNGs? Just play limit? Just play no limit? Play all and see what works? Pokertrack every possible hand and then look at results after 10K hands?

Any and all advice is welcome. Basically, I'm very mathematically inclined, know cards, know odds, but still tend to lose and would love to turn this around. I refuse to believe that I can't be good at poker - but am starting to believe that I'm not as good as I thought I was right now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks.

brettbrettr · #2 10-13-2005, 01:41 AM

Don't go near the 20/40. Don't even look.

Here's a plan: take a month, play 2/4 or 3/6. Play lots of hands, post 1-2 hands per day, respond otoother people posts, basically, use the forum.

Stats aren't as meaningful as you might think, but they do help to identify leaks.

Start there...

JacksonTens · #3 10-13-2005, 01:48 AM

This is what I did and what I'd suggest.

Go to the lowest avaivable limit. I think it's 0.02-0.04 on Stars. Play it Beat it. Build a Bankroll i.e. around 450BB for the next limit, I think 0.05-0.10, do this continually going up each level once you reach 450BB for the next one. It may seem slow but if you concentarate you'll get there.

In reference to Brett's recomendations of 2/4 and 3/6 these are too tough for a losing player, start low and win, build a BR and move up accordingly.

Another perk of this system is you only need to risk $50 (stars buyin)

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

brettbrettr · #4 10-13-2005, 01:50 AM

2/4 is def beatable for someone with experience. His game might just need tweaks...

.02/.04, who has time for that....

#5 10-13-2005, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have about $5K that I'm willing to call my poker bankroll and willing to invest to get better and hopefully start to turn a profit.

Assuming I control tilting, and play solid poker, is there hope for me?

I guess my questions are as follows:
1) Is there a limit level/online site that you feel is ideal for profit?
2) Are $20/$40 games easily beatable, or does play have to be so close to optimum that it isn't worth trying? Reason I ask - that's where a majority of my losses have come - so I guess if you find guys like me - it's easy to make a profit.
3) What's the best way to find the leaks in my game - would I need to get pokertracker and start tracking hands?
4) If I were to consider today my starting over point - what would be a recommended strategy? MTT? SNGs? Just play limit? Just play no limit? Play all and see what works? Pokertrack every possible hand and then look at results after 10K hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Any site can be "ideal" for profit depending on your style. PartyPoker is good, but full of fish (some argue too full because it leads to too many suckouts). PokerStars is a good site as well. I've found FullTilt to be almost too tough to beat, perhaps because very few people take the flop and there aren't as many bad players as other sites. UltimateBet, PokerRoom, ... ... there are plenty of sites that can be profitable.

2. With only a $5,000 bankroll (assuming no reloads), I'd stay away from 20/40 for a while. You only have 125 BBs, which isn't the bankroll you need to be playing such stakes. I would recommend playing at 2/4 or 3/6 limit. Sure the stakes are smaller than what you may be used to, but why learn about your leaks and how to fix them at 20/40 when you can learn just as easily (and a lot cheaper) at 2/4 or 3/6.

3. You don't need to get PokerTracker or similar software, but it certainly wouldn't hurt, especially if you're wanting to learn. Poker is a game about information, not only that information you learn about your opponents, but also the information you learn about yourself, your game, and your strengths and weaknesses. PokerTracker is one way to gather information about yourself.

4. Hard to answer this question without knowing more about you and your poker history. Even with this knowledge, it's a hard question to answer. What have you spent the majority of your poker time doing? If you're mostly a limit player, perhaps you need to move down in limits, but stick with what you know. Others I know recommend trying something new, whether it be switching from limit to NL, or perhaps trying some SnGs or MTTs. It's cliche, but you've gotta find what works for you, based on your strengths and past poker performance.

#6 10-13-2005, 01:55 AM

I didn't see you mention SSHE once. Get the book. Read it. I'm highly doubtful you've read this or you wouldn't be playing with a 125 BB bankroll on a 20/40 game.
Follow brett's suggestion and play 2/4 or 3/6 for a month. Start with one table, get poker tracker and after you've finished a session, go through every hand and see where you made mistakes. After a while you'll only have to do this for a few hands every 10-20k hands or so, but for now, it's critical that you start reading more to get a better handle on your play, then put in the time at the tables and analyze it to find your leaks.

brettbrettr · #7 10-13-2005, 01:58 AM

Oh, right, books. Small Stakes HOld Em by Ed Miller is good. He has another hold-em book that's also supposed to be good. The second one is more basic, I hear, SSHE can be difficult....

JacksonTens · #8 10-13-2005, 01:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
.02/.04, who has time for that....

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm trying to say is that he should start from the bottom, if he is a winning player he will move up these nanos relatively quickly with very low risk.

Granted 2/4 is soft, but to an experienced winner, but I wouldn't throw a newbie into it. (by Newbie I mean new to winning)

Surely you agree my idea is the least risky?

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

#9 10-13-2005, 02:00 AM

I've had success at NL - overall a loser, but I'd attribute that to tilty play - when I'm concentrating and playing solid, tight, NL has been good to me.

I'm positive at SNGs.

Have won a few tourneys, but overall am negative.

Negative Limit player, however, feel like it's safer and that's where the money is - although, at $3/$6 and $2/$4 - perhaps not. But, the reason I moved up to $20/$40 and $10/$20 was because of the thought: "I'm better than these guys and they'll play tighter and more real up here..." - NOT the case. Just as loose...

So, if I take the advice of brettbrett and yourself - how would you recommend I find my leaks - if not through pokertracker? It seems like that's the only real way to keep good track of the hands I'm playing, what aggression works, etc...

That's the frustrating part - I feel like I know good poker and achieve it live (perhaps that's because at home and in Vegas/Reno/etc. there are a lot of tourists and they are just easier games) - but haven't been able to rake in the dough like I read about online. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, given that I've had success at times - I don't know if it's because of a particular looseness at the time, or tightness at the time - I haven't been tracking and that's probably caused me to waste thousands and thousands of hands...

brettbrettr · #10 10-13-2005, 02:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I take the advice of brettbrett and yourself - how would you recommend I find my leaks - if not through pokertracker? It seems like that's the only real way to keep good track of the hands I'm playing, what aggression works, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Have a pad and pen next to your compuer. Write down a hand you were confused about, might have misplayed, lost a big pot, whatever. Post the hand.

Really, read the forums. Read the hands, reply with what you would do, then go back and reread others replies. This is the fastest way to learn.

Success at times is meaningless. Results are relatively menaingless inasmuch as you can play perfect poker and lose. Remember that, read the forums, post some hands and you'll become a zen poker warrior in no time.