Dumb minimum raises

[amulet]

the minimum raise.

here is a play i see everyday, and i have no idea what the player is thinking?

i see it in nl play at both the high limits and the low limits. it tells me the player is clueless about the game. however, since many players do it, i wonder what they think is accomplishes?

several limpers, a late position player, or worse yet one of the blinds, makes the minimum raise possible. why? what are they thinking?
immediately think, this guy is building the pot, and has no clue, because no limper is folding to the minimum raise especially at nl..can anyone help me with their flawed thinking?

the other play i see often and think is incorrect in most instances is stealing the blinds in many cash nl games. they just are too small in relation to the stacks and the avg pot. i understand it in tournament play when the blinds are escalating , but in cash games it seems dumb most of the time

[Salerosa]

I ALMOST never min-raise (keep in mind I play mostly 6-max), with the exception of when I am in extremely weak tight games with low PP or low suited connectors. The only time I do this, is when it has been proven that I can get 2 or 3 callers, then take down the pot after the flop with a decent sized bet. Again, I don't incorporate this into my normal game, but you'd be surprised how the "donk" minraise can throw "solid" players off of thier game. Forgot to add I do it to build a pot pre-flop, and if I'm doing it I'll do it with a wide range of hands.

Now as for stealing blinds, I do it all the time when I've got two weak players sitting in the SB and BB. Think of it this way(we'll use 100max for the sake of simplicity), it's folded to you on the button and you raise 4 BB(my standard raise) or $4. Everytime you take it down you make $1.50. So you do this 5 time, get called only once, $6-$4= +EV of $2. Not to mention this sets you up to get paid off when you do wake up with monster hands, and if BB and SB are weak enough that I am picking on their blinds they are probably folding most flops to me as well, which is even more +EV for me. Of course I am a believer in getting every edge I can, not so much just for the few bucks I'll make in a session doing it, but the more aggressive you seem the more likely you are to get your big hands paid off (or at least this is my reasoning).

[three1ne]

I play 25 PL and see it all the time too. Its hands like medium suited connectors, or even better.. AJ and A10 off. Rubbish like that.

99% they fold to a minimum bet on the flop anyway [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I think these people are designed to hand us money.

[GoCubsGo]

When I see a minimum raise preflop, I pretty much ignore it when deciding how much to raise. Maybe I add 1 BB to my bet. I really love min-raises. So much information for such a small price.

[DJMaytag]

At $10 NL and lower on UB and Stars, a minraise seems to mean rockets more often than not these days. I love to crack 'em with garbage too, then watch them complain that AA didn't hold up unimproved versus 5 players.

On a similar note, I had a little experiment that seemed to work wonders at several tables last week with PF minraise. I just minraised EVERY hand, regardless of what it was, then minbet out unless villain(s) played back or I hit a monster. Seemed to keep ppl off balance and took down a few pots uncontested with 72o. Biggest pot of the session was a $12 pot on a $2 Max table when someone tried to trap and got unlucky enough to let me river a set of 7's.

[Neil Stevens]

[ QUOTE ]
I play 25 PL and see it all the time too. Its hands like medium suited connectors, or even better.. AJ and A10 off. Rubbish like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify, you're not saying this would be a bad play (minraising in late position after 5, 6 limpers) with, say, ATs or QJs are you?

Because I'll do that, and I think it makes sense. If I don't hit the flop, I'm out an extra quarter. If I get a draw, I'm more likely to have the odds to chase because of the raise. If I do have the nuts, with that many people in there are lots of ways to run into a second-best hand and really get paid off.

(I just started playing again after many moons off, though, so maybe I'm talking total nonsense.)

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play 25 PL and see it all the time too. Its hands like medium suited connectors, or even better.. AJ and A10 off. Rubbish like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify, you're not saying this would be a bad play (minraising in late position after 5, 6 limpers) with, say, ATs or QJs are you?

Because I'll do that, and I think it makes sense. If I don't hit the flop, I'm out an extra quarter. If I get a draw, I'm more likely to have the odds to chase because of the raise. If I do have the nuts, with that many people in there are lots of ways to run into a second-best hand and really get paid off.

(I just started playing again after many moons off, though, so maybe I'm talking total nonsense.)

[/ QUOTE ]

You are directly reducing your implied odds by putting more money in pre-flop. This is especially true when your opponents size their bets based on the size of the pot. It doesn't help your pot odds then, it just reduces your implied odds dramatically on each street. You could use the same reasoning here to bet $24 with 72o, because when the flop comes down, you will have pot odds to call for your last dollar.

[Neil Stevens]

[ QUOTE ]
You are directly reducing your implied odds by putting more money in pre-flop. This is especially true when your opponents size their bets based on the size of the pot. It doesn't help your pot odds then, it just reduces your implied odds dramatically on each street. You could use the same reasoning here to bet $24 with 72o, because when the flop comes down, you will have pot odds to call for your last dollar.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, you can't use that reasoning with 72o, becuase then when you make your hand you still have a good chance of being that second-best hand I was talking about. I try to do that with hands I can expect to have the best hand with, when I make my hand.

Your point about the implied odds is taken, though.

[amulet]

in limit your plays will be profitable, in no limit the minimum raise there is not correct.

[DJMaytag]

If only I had the BR to do this at a higher stake:

.01/.02 NL
87 VPIP
84 PFR
473 PTBB/100

Will have to report back with a bigger sample size to see the long term results. This style could do wonders for keeping ppl guessing and then stacking someone when they least expect it.

A guy who I got this idea from said he makes $400 a month playing like this at penny tables. Somehow I doubt it, but if you hit enough big pots on some crazy hand no one would suspect ya for, then that should at least even ya out.