Maybe I need some help - Page 5

afk · #41 10-12-2005, 10:18 AM

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HAND 3: Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 7 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB raises, UTG calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Flop: (9 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (9 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG calls.

River: (12 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, Button folds, UTG raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 15 BB

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This one is pretty bad in my opinion. Raise preflop every time here. The flop is fine. Why did you bet the turn? You aren't folding them out and there isn't much value in it. I check the river, I think betting is just giving money away.

bozlax · #42 10-12-2005, 10:56 AM

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I think you misread the hand.

I wasnt facing a raise and specifically said if there was a raise I would generally fold AJo in that position.

My raise in that hand worked exactly how I wanted it to work. I bought the button, dropped the blinds, and got myself into in a 3 way pot with at least one hand I had dominated. Even though I lost the hand I think I played it very well even if one could argue on saving the BB by taking the free card on the turn and check/fold the river unimproved.

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I think you're not listening to what I'm trying to tell you. You're raising AJo to buy the Button, fine, and maybe the blinds will fold, too, wonderful. And then you'll be against two opponents (you're not going to fold either of the original limpers, even if you're able to fold both blinds, which is also doubtful) with AJo, last to act on every street, having put 2 bets into a 7.5 bet pot.

In the AQ hand, if you call, you wind up first to act against two opponents. But, since the preflop aggressor is on your immediate left all you have to do on the flop is check and you'll be last to act. And, you're putting 1.5 bets into a 6.5 bet pot. With a better hand.

My point is, you don't seem to be seeing these two opportunities to play as being as similar as they are. And, fwiw, I have no problem with raising AJo in the situation you were in; I'm trying to demonstrate to you that if you're going to raise that hand in that position you shouldn't be folding AQo in the SB against a raise and one cold-caller.

I've also been thinking more about this, and I think I see part of the problem: you think all the players at the table play like you do. "If somebody raises preflop, they must have a really strong hand," and, "I can't believe that he OPEN-LIMPED in middle postion!" are the differences you actually seem to be drawing between these two hands. Without other information, you really can't judge a hand based on preflop action to this kind of precision.

Let's square away preflop, first, and then work on postflop.

bozlax · #43 10-12-2005, 11:24 AM

ATo on the button with a poster in the CO and a steal-attempt from jiijack
KJo in MP3 with 2 limpers
87s in the hiijack with 1 limper
A2s in the BB with an EP raise and an EP2 cold-call
33 on the button against a MP1 raise and MP3 cold-call (maybe, depending on reads)

Ok, that's 5 obvious ones, and all the time I've got. You ARE missing situations to play, you can find the rest of them.

tiltaholic · #44 10-12-2005, 12:01 PM

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ATo on the button with a poster in the CO and a steal-attempt from jiijack
KJo in MP3 with 2 limpers
87s in the hiijack with 1 limper
A2s in the BB with an EP raise and an EP2 cold-call
33 on the button against a MP1 raise and MP3 cold-call (maybe, depending on reads)

Ok, that's 5 obvious ones, and all the time I've got. You ARE missing situations to play, you can find the rest of them.

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are these supposed to be obvious situations to profitably play?

the KJo one, fine.
the others? hardly obvious and otherwise incorrect or highly questionable plays.

bozlax · #45 10-12-2005, 12:06 PM

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hardly obvious and otherwise incorrect or highly questionable plays.

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LOL. You're right, I admit, I was getting a little tired of the thread and short-armed this one. As someone else pointed out, in the posted session Hero was pretty seriously cold-decked, and I was reaching trying to find hands to play.

Thanks for calling me on it.

kiemo · #46 10-12-2005, 01:43 PM

I do appreciate the input Bozlax, and I am understanding your point with the AJ a bit better now.

However you say I was cold decked in the sessions posted, but honestly this is pretty much how almost all my sessions look. I am quite confident I am missing alot of profitable hands preflop, but I honestly dont know where. The KJo hand you mentioned was probably a tilt fold, its a borderline hand from MP with two early limpers and I probably debated raising or folding and decided on folding becuase of the bad night.

I pretty much use the SSH starting chart for tight games as my basis for every session and right around 14% is where I always end up.

milesdyson · #47 10-12-2005, 01:57 PM

14% vpip is not optimal - that's the point. your vpip converges quickly, and yours is under 14%.

you are doing something to get your vpip that low. when i looked at the session i noticed quite a few times you were in late position with a hand worth playing/raising in an unraised pot, but someone early would raise. maybe you are sitting to the left of loose aggressive players and not isolating enough? you have to eventually open up your raising standards.

you can't expect someone to go through all your hands and tell you where to see a flop... you aren't seeing enough flops, and you have to figure out how to see more. there's no getting around it.

homebrewer · #48 10-12-2005, 01:59 PM

hi Kiemo,
Your experiences are very similar to mine. Not long ago I was "crushing" .5/1 full-ring and 6-max (about 30k hands too). I then made my 2nd foray into 1/2 6-max (the 1st was profitable but I found several leaks that I had to work on). My confidence was high and I was *running well*. I figured my 2nd try would be even more profitable - assuming I had improved my play.

I suffered a pretty good downswing almost immediately. I looked real hard at my hands and found several that I played poorly. However, I also found that I *seemed* to be running bad too. One of the things that affected me psychologically, but not really my play (at least I don't think so) was losing more in terms of actual dollars. The absolute dollar amount that I had lost was psychologically painful. Turns out that in terms of the actual number of BBs, my downswing at 1/2 was similar to other downswings that I've gone through in .50/1.

In similar threads, others have advocated "hanging in there" until things turn around. That's what I did and I ended up having a big turn around.

You seem to be receptive to the constructive criticisms offered by other 2+2ers. Others have suggested that your style is not suited to 1/2. Perhaps, they are right. But, you should make your own decision based upon your ability to weather the storm. Either way, work to implement the things suggested in this thread - especially about the range of hands that you play. You'll be better for it.

aces_dad · #49 10-12-2005, 02:06 PM

Most people start with the tight section and add sitatuions, not necessarily hands, to increase the VPIP / PFR. Look for reasons to isolate poor players, not reasons to not play against them.

Even if you just gave your competition a little less respect preflop and peeled the flop slightly more I think you'd be playing a more profitable game.

I'd imagine your very tight style is most likely the least prone to varience and thus why this downturn is so upsetting.

bozlax · #50 10-12-2005, 02:55 PM

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Others have suggested that your style is not suited to 1/2. Perhaps, they are right.

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To clarify, what we're suggesting is that Kiemo's style isn't suited to the micro-limit games. And, we ARE right [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

The problem is multi-fold, but it boils down to this: the players in the micros are too loose to let you make money consistently stealing blinds, and they're too passive to build big pots when it's big hand vs. big hand. So your monsters are going to win small-to-mid sized pots, and you're not going to be picking up anything to pad that. Subtract from that the times that you're raising preflop and folding when the flop doesn't hit you in the face, and the blinds that you're just giving away, and you're losing money, hard.