Dumb minimum raises

[three1ne]

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I play 25 PL and see it all the time too. Its hands like medium suited connectors, or even better.. AJ and A10 off. Rubbish like that.

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Just to clarify, you're not saying this would be a bad play (minraising in late position after 5, 6 limpers) with, say, ATs or QJs are you?

Because I'll do that, and I think it makes sense. If I don't hit the flop, I'm out an extra quarter. If I get a draw, I'm more likely to have the odds to chase because of the raise. If I do have the nuts, with that many people in there are lots of ways to run into a second-best hand and really get paid off.

(I just started playing again after many moons off, though, so maybe I'm talking total nonsense.)

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Well, I see this from EP and EP+1 will then reraise the minimum again. Its pathetic. Yes, occasionally theyll hit a big draw/hand and get paid off providing there are enough muppets at the table. But for any serious player min raising isnt worthwhile.

If you have a speculative hand like KJs and you are fairly certain everyone will call the minraise without re-raising, it can be advantageous.

I think people that use the minraise were carry-overs from limit play.

In limit, in late position, against multiple callers, some people like to raise with speculative hands like these that play well in multiway pots.

[GrunchCan]

More often than not, an opponent who makes the minimum raise possible is doing so for value. They are afraid that if they make a bigger raise you might fold, but they 'know' that they are supposed to raise with such a good hand.

[rikz]

I guess they want to sweeten the pot, so to speak, with low pocket pairs or hands like T9s. I suppose they expect everyone to call behind them effectively doubling the pot. These guys don't generally make regular, large continuation bets, either. They bet if they hit and check if they don't.

So, maybe here's what they are thinking: "Let's say 8 people limp to me in BB and I hold 44. I know that at this table a min-raise will get called 100% of the time without a re-raise (just for argument's sake). Now, for the cost of just one additional BB, I've doubled the size of the pot. So, with my ~7.5:1 shot at a set, I'm now looking at winning at least 16BB when I hit instead of 8BB. Plus, with more limpers in a bigger pot, I might stack somebody that flops 2-pair with a hand they shouldn't be playing."

On the other hand, I think it's a bad play. It really just opens the door for an aggressive guy limping with AA/KK or AK in EP to re-raise big. It also leaves you with no credibility in making a continuation bet when you miss the flop, like you usually will.

As for stealing the blinds, I do it all the time. At NL50, .25/.50, I'll raise to $2 when folded to me on the button or in the SB every time unless I have a note on villain like, "Defends blinds aggressively." I stay away from those guys, but pick up a lot of $0.75 pots. Also, when I get a defender, I'll call the first time I'm raised and play it after that depending on my flop and reads on villain. After that, I'll back off that guy for a while.

If I pick up 25 $0.75 post a week with hands like Q7o, that comes to about $18.75. When I get into a battle, I win some and lose some. So, I probably pick up at least $10/week this way including those lost blinds battles.

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Also, when I get a defender, I'll call the first time I'm raised and play it after that depending on my flop and reads on villain. After that, I'll back off that guy for a while.


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I like this. And I think it's correct. If played back at, you have to save face by calling the re-raise from one of the blinds. If you miss the flop...get away from it, no biggy. Then back off of him.

That way, next time you raise his blind, he will think twice about re-raising you. He will not automatically assume you are stealing his blind.

I think I need to work on stealing more blinds. If you get called with junk like the computer hand, you still can win this hand HU a fair share of the time.

[brian94709]

A more interesting question is: How do you play against the pf minraise?

Do you call raises with the same hands youd call a normal raise with? Do you reraise with hands you'd normally call with?

For example, suppose you have AJ, and someone minraises. Do you call? What about if you're in the Big Blind? What if you then make a pair of Aces on the flop?

What about if you hold AQo and someone minraises? Do you reraise to the amount youd normally raise to? Do you make a large reraise? Do you just call?

Full Ring:

I basically ignore preflop minraises in my preflop play. If I was going to fold, I fold anyway. If I was going to limp, I go ahead and call the minraise. The only time I factor it in at all is when I was going to raise; in that case, I add it into my raise, so my usual raise 4xbb plus whatever is laying on the table is bigger than it otherwise would have been. Also, with one or two callers between me and the minraiser, I might be more inclined to pound a big enough reraise to fold out the minraise callers if I had a big pocket pair or something. Truthfully, though, I can't recall any specific instances of doing this. But that is the only adjustment I make preflop, almost all the time (I think I may have been CO or on the button once or twice with something like Kxs and decided to fold rather than come in, but those types of situations are pretty rare).

The minraise normally matters to me more postflop, since my operating assumption until I see the minraiser act again is that he has a small to medium pocket pair, a medium ace or good suited connectors.

I don't know if it is an anomaly or not, but most of the last several minraises I have seen shown down were AK, which was surprising enough that I have been making note of it.

But in writing this out, it occurs to me that this is a pretty broad range of hands to be putting someone on, so I don't know that I will scoff at preflop minraises anymore--this range of hands is big enough to allow minraiser a lot of room for deception after the flop. Something to think about, anyway.

6 Max:

Minraise seems to be a standard play designed to do nothing other than keep the blinds from getting cheap/free look at the cards, and I think people who will minraise will do it with any two cards they would limp with. I really think it is just a half-assed attempt to get the blinds to fold without investing too much in the effort.

This is actually how I usually interpret a late position minraise at full ring when the minraiser is first in.

Either way, I just completely ignore it, except when adding up the money on the table to calculate the correct size of a raise (now a reraise).

A Final note: Once every 30, 40 or 50 minraises I am in against AA or KK. This play is advocated in one or two poker books as an acceptable alternative to limping with these hands from EP. So you see it every now and again (and I have actually done this a time or three on tables where people are minraising).