The Origin of Stop and Go

[Leptyne]

I've never understood the "stop and go" play that is often discussed here. I ran across this information and since the term was first coined by Greg Raymer (FossilMan) here on 2+2 I thought I would share this information. What follows is the original post, then the two replies by FossilMan:




happyjaypee
addict


Reged: 09/07/02
Posts: 517
Loc: Quebec, Canada NL tourney hand
12/09/02 07:24 AM Edit Reply Quote



Pokerstars NL Hold'em tourney, 200$+15$, 201 entrants, 27 payed. 1st place 1s 11,055$.

40mins into the tourney, Level III,
Blinds at 25$/50$, 154plrs left.

Stack size:
Seat 1: (290 in chips)
Seat 2: (4475 in chips)
Seat 3: (1515 in chips) Me
Seat 4: (2205 in chips)
Seat 5: (4205 in chips) Button
Seat 6: (375 in chips) SB
Seat 7: (2200 in chips) BB
Seat 8: (1605 in chips)
Seat 9: (1375 in chips)


Folded to mee. I have AKo on the CO and make a standard 5x the BB raise to 250$, Buton re-raised 450$ more to 700$.

Now what?? He has me covered and as position on me. All I know about him is he won a couple pots pre-flop and on the flop by being agressive whit position.

If I fold, I'm left me whit 1,255$ whit blind raising to 50$/100$ soon. Not a hopeless position.

Calling here leaves me whit 815$ to see the flop on a 1,475$ pot whit the blinds, trying to hit an Ace or King. I might call if i had more money to play whit and had position.

Moving-in seem the best option since I get to see 5 cards. And it "annouces" AA, KK or AK. So I now put the pressure on my opponent. If he have a big ace, I'm way ahead. Any PP is a 50/50 shot and he can't be sure I don't have Aces or Kings.

I moved-in, he called whit 88 and I missed. Got busted in 154th.


Was my conclusion correct? I found is calling whit 88 pretty weak but he got away whit it i'm out. Was it too early in the tourney to make such moves considering loose plrs are still in? A friend of mine insist I should have just called but I argued folding was better move then calling in that spot.

What would you have done and why???
thx.



-Happy

Post Extras

CT Re: NL tourney hand
12/09/02 10:22 AM Edit Reply Quote



Because of your chip count, you are in a tough spot. Given the positions, he can put you on a steal, so AK is too good of a hand to fold here, IMO. I think there are two viable plays, the one you made, and the stop-and-go.

The stop-and-go is to call now, and then bet the flop, even when you miss. This greatly increases your chances of beating a hand just like 88. When the flop comes J52, and you bet all-in, he'll have a tough call to make, as hitting that J or Q or whatever will often look very believable. If you are against AA or KK, you will get called and most likely lose, but that's no worse than getting it all in preflop. If he was playing a weak-mediocre A, and if he would've folded it preflop, then this play is bad if he hits that kicker and calls you postflop. However, in this case, given the size of your all-in compared to the pot, he is potstuck, really, and will probably always call.

The real loss in this play is when he folds a hand like AQ postflop, a hand which you're beating badly enough that you want him to call (the chips you win at risk are worth more than the certain chips if he folds). However, again given the size of your raise, while you want him to call with AQ postflop, you didn't want him to call preflop, and you can't have it both ways (very often).

One thing I would do is raise less preflop. Here you raised 1/6th of your stack. That is an awkward amount. If you had made it T150 preflop, and then got raised to T450 or so, you could've made a substantial reraise and he maybe folds preflop. Also, when you're stealing in the future, it works better if you can do it for less, and if you raise less with your good hands, this will disguise your steals.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)




Stonington CT Re: Thx Greg
12/09/02 12:47 PM Edit Reply Quote



Since I wasn't there and all, I'm not saying that the stop-and-go was the better play this time. It might have been.

Remember that this play doesn't work if you're not first to act postflop. It also tends to work best when YOU have the small/medium pair, and suspect you're up against AK. One important thing to remember is do NOT change your mind. If you held 88, and the flop was AKQ, it is NOT the time to give up the play. This is when your 88 beat TT, because when you bet out, he'll give you credit for at least one of those cards, and he won't have anywhere near the odds to catch his 4-6 outs.

Three main things for the stop-and-go (at the least the all-in version). First, your hand is too good to fold preflop for the conditions. Second, if you reraise preflop it won't be enough to make them fold. Third, if you bet the flop it will be enough to make them fold if they miss.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)