Shorthanded pineapple hands

[schubes]

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone - I've been lurking at 2+2 for several months, and I can say with confidence that, in addition to being interesting, reading these posts has seriously improved my game (mainly shorthanded HE).

Anyway, what finally got me out of lurker mode was deciding to play crazy pineapple (.25/.50 for high) for the first time at UB. At this point, the loosest, most clueless (this is saying something) players have all busted, but I'm still sticking around - Table selection doesn't exist with pineapple at 2 AM, nor is it necessary here.

<font color="blue"> Hand 1 </font> (5 handed, 1 player is sitting out)

Preflop: Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in SB
UTG limps, Button folds, Hero raises (?), BB folds, UTG calls

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets (intending to 3-bet a raise), BB calls

Hero discards A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls

Is this hand standard? Should I raise river?

<font color="blue"> Hand 2 </font> (5 handed)

Preflop: Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in CO
UTG folds, Hero raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

Hero discards?

I'm keeping the ace, but should I go with the backdoor flush draw or the higher kicker? The value of the backdoor flush is small, but it seems that the relative value of Q over T is also small.
It may not be a very significant decision here, but this situation must come up all the time in pineapple. Any thoughts?
(I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, and this is what inspired me to finally post)

Thanks again to everyone on these forums for all the great posts!

[Phat Mack]

Schubes,

Welcome aboard. I love pineapple, especially high, and don't get to play it enough! Always happy to see another pineapple poster.

It's been years since I've played limit pineapple high, but...

Hand 1: Heads up it's about 9:1 he doesn't have a flush. I like your discard.

I've played mostly pot limit and no limit and I've conditioned myself not to draw for a straight or second nut flush when there's a flush on the board and I'm out of postion. Here I think it's OK; you may be up against a dry Ah. No, I wouldn't re-raise the river unless I had a read on the guy.

Hand 2: Running Steve Brecher's freeware program Hold'em Showdown, and simming it as a holdem hand, keeping the Ts is a 2% edge. I don't play this hand after the flop. I've missed the flop and I don't draw to top pair in pineapple. Instead I'm looking for opponents who play top pair or AA or KK, and won't let go of it. JMO

Mack

[schubes]

Mack,
Thanks for your responses, I really enjoyed pineapple too, hopefully more people will eventually see the light!

Hand 1:
The main reason I was uncertain about my river call was because if I had the same hand heads-up in hold'em I think I would reraise, even though against a typically passive microlimit opponent it might be a little thin. I was wondering if the increased strength of pineapple hands pushes this over the line to a call.
Since you said "it's about 9:1 he doesn't have a flush," and since in holdem I think its only about 4% (9/44*8/43), the increased likelihood of the flush in pineapple does seem to suggest I should only call. It turned out he did indeed have the flush with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Still, I couldn't help but feel a little weak-tight.

Hand 2:
I couldnt decide what to discard, but I knew I would feel stupider if I lost to AJ than if I lost when running spades hit, so I kept the Q. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
The turn was 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. If he isn't already ahead, this gave him a possible straight or paired his straight draw. We both checked.
The river was the J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], it was checked through and my AQ beat his 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I played around with Hold'em showdown too, and the 2% edge of Ts over Qc holds up for most of BB's possible hands. So, in general it seems that the backdoor draw has an advantage over the higher kicker in most steal situations.

But for the sake of discussion, let's suppose BB will rarely defend with hands containing more than one low card (besides maybe hands containing Axs). When the board comes low like this, it is less likely he'll have a pair or straight draw. Let's also suppose he'll play back at me at some point if he has a pair. Then, when he calls my flop bet, he most likely has 2 overcards.

If he has AK or KT the T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] has a decent edge over the Q (about %6-10), but the Q gives almost as much of edge if he has KQ or QJ. If he has KJ or QT the T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] has less than a 1% edge, but if he has AQ, AJ or AT discarding the Q is obviously a major mistake.

I agree that keeping the Q was the incorrect choice, but if we can put the BB on overcards might the higher kicker be better?

[Phat Mack]

If he has AK or KT the T has a decent edge over the Q (about %6-10), but the Q gives almost as much of edge if he has KQ or QJ. If he has KJ or QT the T has less than a 1% edge, but if he has AQ, AJ or AT discarding the Q is obviously a major mistake.

When he has a Q, I think of your Q's power as that of denying him an out, which is what it does whether you keep it or discard it. The nice thing about the T is that it gives you 10 spades to hit on fouth street that will make your hand play much more strongly. I would rather hit a spade on 4th street than an A or Q.

I agree that keeping the Q was the incorrect choice, but if we can put the BB on overcards might the higher kicker be better?

I just don't feel comfortable with playing over cards in pineapple unless it's 2 or maybe 3 handed. Here's why: In pineapple each player has 3 cards which theoretically make 3 hold 'em hands. I say theoretically because if you have a hand like 9s9h8h you have 99, 9s8h and 9h8h; but the 9s8h doesn't add any functionality that isn't possesed by the 9h8h (except for the minimal utility added by the 9s for flushes). So let's say for the sake of argument that each pineapple hand contains 2 hold 'em hands. This means that when you're playing 5-handed pineapple, you are against at least as many hands as if you were playing 9-handed hold 'em.

Therefore, it's extremely difficult to put an opponent on over cards--he could have anything. Let your opponent put you on over cards, let him play over cards, but make sure you have the goods. The concept of playing overcards heads up in a 5-handed game is a hold 'em concept, and the money in pineapple comes from playing opponents who bring their hold 'em concepts to the pineapple table. Exploiting the tiny edges we are discussing here just isn't valid, in my opinion, in pineapple.

[schubes]

[ QUOTE ]
When he has a Q, I think of your Q's power as that of denying him an out, which is what it does whether you keep it or discard it. The nice thing about the T is that it gives you 10 spades to hit on fouth street that will make your hand play much more strongly. I would rather hit a spade on 4th street than an A or Q.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well put. I see why the Ts is much stronger, I was just trying to consider a situation (maybe unrealistic and irrelevant) where the Q might be preferable. When the flop missed my hand, the hold'em player in me wanted to keep the best hold'em starting hand, AQ. Yet, I knew that post-flop the advantages of Q over T must be quite small, hence my question (you agree if the T didn't give me a 3-flush I should keep Q? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img])

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't feel comfortable with playing over cards in pineapple unless it's 2 or maybe 3 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really didn't feel comfortable either, I know the chance BB has a pair is much greater than in hold'em, but do you suggest I check behind on the flop? The possibility he doesn't have a made hand must be great enough to make this worthwhile, (or so it seems to the hold'em player in me). BB, my only opponent, could also have missed, and wants me to let him outdraw. I did notice in playing the hand that the flop gave straight draw opportunities, and in the very short time I played these also seemed more common than in hold'em. I didn't feel safe with overcards, and would've (or should've) folded had BB bet out on the turn or river.

[ QUOTE ]
This means that when you're playing 5-handed pineapple, you are against at least as many hands as if you were playing 9-handed hold 'em.

[/ QUOTE ]
Remember, the 3 other players folded preflop, it isn't as if they folded after seeing the flop. I am only against the BB who is defending to my raise. I think a fairer use of this analogy here would be playing against 2 or 3 hands on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
The concept of playing overcards heads up in a 5-handed game is a hold 'em concept, and the money in pineapple comes from playing opponents who bring their hold 'em concepts to the pineapple table.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, stay away from my table then! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This is of course my problem, I am trying to adapt my expectations to a new game. This is especially difficult, I think, in shorthanded situations like these. I appreciate your advice, you clearly got to the root of the problem (and more theoretical problem of the Ts vs Q as well)

Schubes