Reraising QQ amounts..

[1800GAMBLER]

0.5x/x stakes, 100x stacks.

Unknown player raises 10x preflop from LP. You're on the button, how much do you reraise with QQ and why?

[1800GAMBLER]

Assume there were limpers before the LP player. So (s)he isn't open raising.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Jay,

I don't know if I'd reraise here. With the limpers, he's probably not bluffing, which means he probably has a good hand. I'd put him on AA, KK, JJ, TT, AK, or maybe AQs. I'm all but dead to two of those, dominating three others, and a coin-flip to the fifth. I think I might just take a flop here and see what develops after.

Cris

[rockoon]

[ QUOTE ]
0.5x/x stakes, 100x stacks.

Unknown player raises 10x preflop from LP. You're on the button, how much do you reraise with QQ and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

There isnt enough information here. The biggest piece of missing information is how many players there are at the table! This is important because if you want to derive a strategy that prevents a player from running over the table with such big raises you need to know what you are giving up by folding. Obviously if it was 4 handed you would be more liberal in this situation but if it was 10 handed you would be more conservative. Infact 10 handed I recommend you muck your QQ until you know something about the player.

[rockoon]

I would like to add that if you assume the player is playing anything close to correctly (hes unknown after all) then you should throw away approximately the worst 50% of the hands you believe he could correctly raise like that.

But specifically if you think he could raise AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK and AQs, you could only play for a profit if you held AA, KK, or QQ. QQ being the worst of the hands probably shouldnt be reraised because if he plays correctly back at you he will only call when you are seriously beat.

[turnipmonster]

So, in most of my games, 100x is a pretty short stack, since to see a hand through (i.e. just call pot sized bets) with a 10x raise preflop we are going to be putting in 10+20+40+80 > our whole stack.

So for me, the only reason to reraise here is to get away from the hand cheap, i.e. if I reraise 20x and my opponent stacks off, I am going to fold. but I don't want to fold, I have the button and I have QQ.

Say we call here, and use the money we saved by not reraising preflop to raise on the flop no matter what the hell falls (we have the button!).

So say the flop comes down A K 7, and our opponent bets, and we raise, and he does anything other than fold. We're beat such a large percentage of the time I can feel great about this fold all day, and I didn't cost much more money than if I had raised preflop. plus, maybe he slows down and checks through.

for me, the basic theme of this hand is:
1) I want to see the flop
2) I want to punish my out of position opponent by having to act first on every street (i.e. I don't want to give him the chance to stack off)

In short, in this spot I want to play QQ like the most premium middle pair ever, instead of a big pair that I am going to back with my stack preflop. I may want to back QQ with my stack here, but I need more convincing before doing it.

whaddya think?

--turnipmonster

[Guy McSucker]

with a 10x raise preflop we are going to be putting in 10+20+40+80 > our whole stack.

Just a nitpick: with pot sized bets we're looking at investing 10 + 20 + 60 + 180, i.e. nearly three times the stack here. (Actually, with 1.5 in blinds, it's 10 + 21.5 + 64.5 + 193.5, wow those blinds make a difference by the river, don't they?)

I think I agree with your analysis.
Guy.

[Jon Matthews]

20x should isolate him I think and a reraise all in (70x) is enough that you might be able to put him on aces (player dependant) and act accordingly. Any less will get an autocall and any more could get you too far in to let go...


Jon

[hazeelnut]

"With the limpers, he's probably not bluffing, which means he probably has a good hand. "

I would say that the limpers make it more likely he doesnt have a good hand. Its unusual people open with a 10x BB raise just to steal the blinds. But with lots of limpers in the pot people could easily try to steal all that money with mediocre hands. Hence be more inclined to call/reraise QQ with limpers, and to fold without limpers.

hazeel

[rockoon]

[ QUOTE ]
"With the limpers, he's probably not bluffing, which means he probably has a good hand. "

I would say that the limpers make it more likely he doesnt have a good hand. Its unusual people open with a 10x BB raise just to steal the blinds. But with lots of limpers in the pot people could easily try to steal all that money with mediocre hands. Hence be more inclined to call/reraise QQ with limpers, and to fold without limpers.

hazeel

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt say that the limpers have an impact on if he has a good hand or not because its 'an unknown player'. For all you know this particular player only plays pocket aces. If this was the case, the limpers wouldnt mean anything at all.

I'm not saying you should assume he has pocket aces. On the contrary I think against an unknown player who makes such a big raise you must turn to a defensive strategy that avoids giving up too much. In a 10 handed game you really arent giving up much, however, by mucking pocket queens here. The hand isnt a big winner under the circumstances.