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#21
08-24-2005, 12:59 PM
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Re: I HATE making this laydown
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I want to reiterate that I don't think this is a good fold. Villian could have J9s,T9s,JTs. That's it. AQ is a 3-bet. Everything else we beat or tie. You really have to include the donk-factor into these hands. If we include even 1 donk hand I think this turns to a call. There is always at least one donk hand. Krishan [/ QUOTE ] If the read wasnt that the guy is "very solid" then I would agree with you that a call is in order. But what do you think he puts you on? Its obviously at the least a big ace , and unless he has a really really good read on you that you are capable of laying down a big A, then I dont think any solid intelligent player is trying to bluff you of this hand with an A whos kicker doesnt play, or some single diamond. [/ QUOTE ] It could be a protected pot bluff with a weaker ace thinking his kicker got counterfeit and you might be willing to fold your ace. (Really damn rare play I know) Not many kickers play on this board so maybe he thinks the two of you are just fleecing the third player. And finally, the OP said thus far implying in my mind there is some doubt to the read, AKA under 100 hands. Krishan [/ QUOTE ] I can maybe see a case for a hand like Axd doing this, hoping all the kickers are counterfieted and that he is freerolling with a diamond, or that you 2 are juicing the other guy. But I think any daimond kicker big enough that he would be confident in its ability to drag the pot vs 2 players, would have raised PF. Also I dont think he can really be all that confident that your kicker doesnt play given the situation. But once the moron folds, I would figure him to take the free showdown in those scenarios. Maybe I'm getting too hung up on the "very solid" read. 
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#22
08-24-2005, 01:09 PM
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Re: I HATE making this laydown
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But once the moron folds, I would figure him to take the free showdown in those scenarios. [/ QUOTE ] He is in position, but I know what you mean. If he had a weak ace or pair+draw you might expect a check. Krishan
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#24
08-24-2005, 01:42 PM
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Re: I HATE making this laydown
Alobar already touched on this, but i just wanted to point out again that any Ax where the x is a diamond big enough to raise this turn is insta-3 betting this guy preflop. I can't inagine A-9 not three betting preflop, but even if we're being generous here and saying that he calls with that, he's not raising the turn when he picks up a diamond draw if he is this passive.
If you look at how i played the hand, i have pretty clearly played it like a big ace. This makes is much less likely that he will think my kicker is counterfeit, which is the other argument i saw. I think the donk factor allows for calls to made in a lor of situations, but i still haven't ben convinced that this is one of them.
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#26
08-24-2005, 01:47 PM
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Re: I HATE making this laydown
[ QUOTE ]
UTG is quite bad, he is the donator in the game. The SB was been very solid thusfar, i feel his calling range is fairly wide against UTG. Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (5 handed) converter Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls. Flop: (9 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls. Turn: (9 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds. River: (14 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds. Final Pot: 15 BB [/ QUOTE ] Here are my assumptions. He can't have a 3 (unless 33). He can't have AQ, would have 3-bet preflop. He can't have QQ or AA (3-bet preflop). He could have 3 suited connecters that made a flush. He could be a fool. If he has a legit hands 12 times and is a fool once, it's a call. Because there are so few legit hands here, I think I call. FWIW I almost never call after a protected pot turn CR but the play here isn't all that consistent with good tag play. That makes me want to call. Krishan
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#27
08-24-2005, 01:52 PM
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Re: I HATE making this laydown
I understand your point here Krishan, but since UTG was something like 60/30 and horrible postflop, i cold calling the the small blind with hands like J-7 to J-10 of diamonds, 10-8 of diamonds, etc... If my read is wrong, we still can't forget the chance he has A3, or some suited 3. I think my read made this a little more definitive, since i just had one of those feelings when he raised the turn.
It's not that i don't understand what you're saying though. Gabe
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#28
08-24-2005, 02:09 PM
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Re: I HATE making this laydown
[ QUOTE ]
Here are my assumptions. He can't have a 3 (unless 33). He can't have AQ, would have 3-bet preflop. He can't have QQ or AA (3-bet preflop). [/ QUOTE ] Hard to put solid SB on a hand since most good players 3 bet or fold here, particularly when they have a chance to isolate a maniac and BB is tight and good. Most likely holding in my opinion is a hand like J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Also a slowplayed AA is a possibility, as well as AQ. SB called two cold on the flop, then checkraised both players on the turn. He either made a flush or slowplayed a monster on the flop. This is a bluff like never. BB has shown nothing but strength, and UTG is loose and bad. Who bluffs in this spot? I realize these holdings are unlikely, but what hands that we beat that SB might play this way?
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#30
08-24-2005, 04:19 PM
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Re: I HATE making this laydown
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15 BB in the pot? no way am i folding this ever, folding when you are right saves you one measly bet,folding when you are wrong is a disaster, [/ QUOTE ] Bad advice like this is why 2+2 sucks these days.
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