Ruling help

kodonnell · #1 07-18-2005, 02:59 PM

I am usually the one providing ruling advice, but I am not 100% sure on this one.

Hold'em cash game at showdown. First player shows a straight, mucked around to me. I throw my cards towards the muck face down and they hit the chips in the pot. As the first player starts raking in the chips, I state "hang on" and flip my cards over showing a flush. Only about 2-3 seconds passed from when I tossed to when I said hang on. I wasn't paying attention to my flush draw, only my missed straight draw (with a pair) and did not notice the last card filled my flush. Since it is my house and I make the rules, I declared my hand was not mixed into the muck and therefore still live. After reading Roberts rules, I think this is still correct.

This is a low stakes friendly game and there was all of about $3 in the pot at the time so no one really compained too much...but I felt bad about it. I told the players I would get a ruling and let them know.

Any comments? And at what point is the pot no longer available to be won? I am thinking once the declared winner has taken possesion of the pot?

This reminds me...I was at a tournament at a casino (Trump...er...Spotlight 29) and a player was decared the winner and he started collecting the pot. Another player stated "but this guy over here had a straight". "This guy's" hand had been mucked by the dealer as well as the 5 up cards. Another player agreed that he did have a straight. The dealer pulled out all the cards from the muck, and with help of the other players, recreated the hands and the flop, and determined he did have a straight beating the original winners hand and gave the pot to the new winner....amazing. They were even going to roll back the security tape to see the ruling. Now I remember why we play home games... I can get amateur dealers for free at home....no entry fee. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

neotope · #2 07-18-2005, 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since it is my house and I make the rules, I declared my hand was not mixed into the muck and therefore still live.

[/ QUOTE ]

What ruling do you make if you had the straight?

I know it is just a home game but you mucked your cards, you lose.

SamIAm · #3 07-18-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know it is just a home game but you mucked your cards, you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]What if he had simply turned his cards face-down? Then he's allowed to show them, right?

The OP was asking where "hitting the chips" lies on the "face-down":"in the muck" spectrum.
-Sam

neotope · #4 07-18-2005, 03:36 PM

Well the cards are probably already face down unless he holds them so everyone can see. I consider throwing the cards towards the center of the table to be mucking the cards. To me it is not 100% important where the cards land.

I think this is similiar to betting in a forward motion.

kodonnell · #5 07-18-2005, 03:43 PM

If I was in the opposite position (someone else turned over "almost mucked" cards and it beat my hand), I would have given up the pot....hence why I ruled that way.

The way I interpret Robert Rules is a hand is not mucked until it touches cards in the muck...they can be retrieved if they have not touched a card in the muck.

Under "Dead Hands":
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

I just want to know if I owe the other player $3...and in the future, at what point is a hand mucked.

neotope · #6 07-18-2005, 03:52 PM

It does not seem to me that it would be in the best interest of the game for you to be able to retrieve your cards. Nobody gave you incorrect information that caused you to muck your hand.

Artsemis · #7 07-18-2005, 03:54 PM

In general, your hand was mucked and dead.

Like you said, its a home game, and you make the rules; but in my opinion, any that vary from the generally accepted ruleset need to be laid outfront before the game starts.

backlash · #8 07-18-2005, 03:55 PM

"Under "Dead Hands":
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player."

If you go by this rule, I guess it's your discretion if you are management. But, since your intent was to muck and not because of some misinformation on another player's part, I would rule your hand dead.

Unless you were on a stone cold bluff that you didn't want the others to see why muck? Just flip-em, end of problem.

RedRum · #9 07-18-2005, 03:57 PM

Strickly speaking, your hand was mucked. To avoid this in the future, turn up at showdown and then the cards speak.

If you toss the cards towards the center face down, you lose. The chips are a part of the muck. 2 inches in front of you is part of the muck in my home game. Any pushing away of the hold cards face down signifies mucking. Any face up hand is evaluated by the cards, not what the player says/thinks they have.

Drink More,
RedRum

Mojo Tooth · #10 07-18-2005, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If you toss the cards towards the center face down, you lose. The chips are a part of the muck. 2 inches in front of you is part of the muck in my home game. Any pushing away of the hold cards face down signifies mucking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. Agreed. You mucked. If you ever have any doubt about the value of your hand, you should turn them face up so that the whole table bears the moral obligation to have the pot awarded correctly.