Why you never slow play aces.

Publos Nemesis · #1 05-10-2005, 10:41 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

BB ($85.05)
UTG ($22.55)
MP ($25)
Button ($19.25)
Hero ($25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $0.25. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, Button calls $0.25, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1, MP folds, Button calls $1, Hero calls $1.

Turn: ($4) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $2, Button raises to $4, Hero calls $4, BB folds.

River: ($14) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $15, Button calls $14 (All-In).

Final Pot: $43

Results in white below: 
Button has Ac Ad (one pair, aces).
Hero has 3c 3s (three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $43.

papa_georgio · #2 05-10-2005, 11:13 PM

what did he say when he lost? i love it when they play aces badly, and complain that someone with pocket 3's should never have been in the pot to begin with.

Publos Nemesis · #3 05-10-2005, 11:18 PM

He just left the table.

Jordan Olsommer · #4 05-10-2005, 11:22 PM

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what did he say when he lost? i love it when they play aces badly, and complain that someone with pocket 3's should never have been in the pot to begin with.

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Same here - I find that it sweetens the pot in a non-tangible way [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

You can get away with it sometimes in NL, but even in NL AA is slowplayed far too often, in my opinion. I guess beginners get away with it enough that it reinforces the behavior, whereas if you slowplay KK (esp at a passive table) youll shoot yourself in the foot so often that you quickly learn not to (remember when you were a kid and accidentally touched the stove when it was on? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

fuzzbox · #5 05-11-2005, 06:23 AM

He was doomed here, even if he didnt slowplay it.

wtfsvi · #6 05-11-2005, 06:32 AM

Why no raise to 4 on flop? I would want to get their money in while their overpair is still an overpair and their 9 is still top pair.

pzhon · #7 05-11-2005, 06:56 AM

Raising with AA preflop wouldn't have changed anything, so this was neither an argument for nor against slow-playing aces.

Better arguments against slow-playing aces would be if limping allowed the big blind to flop two-pair, or if someone with 33 would call a raise and then fold after missing.

wtfsvi · #8 05-11-2005, 07:05 AM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
Raising with AA preflop wouldn't have changed anything, so this was neither an argument for nor against slow-playing aces.

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It would make a difference in several ways: First of all, he would have gotten at least some money in while he was ahead.

But even when we know the cards that are to come it could make a difference. If he raised to $2 for example, hero would (or should at least I think) fold this preflop with his horrible position, both absolute and relative. And if I'm hero in SB on 33 I will often reraise a loose button raiser, obviously planning to fold to a push. Again: Could have made a big difference.

pzhon · #9 05-11-2005, 07:52 AM

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Raising with AA preflop wouldn't have changed anything, so this was neither an argument for nor against slow-playing aces.

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It would make a difference in several ways: First of all, he would have gotten at least some money in while he was ahead.

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There are multiple correct systems of accounting.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Sklansky dollar accounting: You can look at how much money went in while you were ahead versus behind. This is tough if you don't see the other hand, which is very commonly the case in NL.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Results accounting: You can look at the results of the hands. This is tough if you don't know how the hand would be played if you took other actions.

Both methods work, and they should produce the same answers on average, but the fact that this hand was posted suggests that we use the second method of accounting here. By the first method of accounting (which seems to be your suggestion), the player with AA should regret limping rather than raising by about a dollar (maybe a couple of dollars more if more money would have gone in on the flop, while AA had a few percent chance to win). The hand was posted because the player with AA lost a lot more than $1.

By the results accounting, it was horrible to lose a huge pot. However, that is not an argument for playing the hand differently if you would have lost your stack anyway. You should think about the times you charge a draw that misses or force a draw to fold that would have hit.

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But even when we know the cards that are to come it could make a difference. If he raised to $2 for example, hero would (or should at least I think) fold this preflop with his horrible position, both absolute and relative.

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Perhaps the player with 33 would have folded, but it's ok to play for sets out of position. It is much more important to have good position with a suited connector or a hand that often makes one high pair.

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And if I'm hero in SB on 33 I will often reraise a loose button raiser, obviously planning to fold to a push.

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I think that is a bad line against players who call too much, particularly compared with playing for set value. Too frequently, you end up out of position with a weak hand and a large chunk of your stack in the pot, and you fold with the odds to call when your opponent pushes with AK. You are also not last to act.

John Tesh · #10 05-11-2005, 08:17 AM

I am with Pzhon here. I don't think that a raise would have mattered in this situation. Anyone with AA wants some action and at least 1 caller. If you bet to get that caller, it is the 33 and the flop has doomed him.

Slow playing aces is bad, but here the ship was destined to sink the minute it left port.