A really bad play?

ajm36 · #1 04-19-2005, 06:41 AM

I played this hand tonight, my thought process is at the bottom. Any suggestions? I took the pot, but I feel I made some kind of mistake even being in it and for so long.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO raises, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (28 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, CO raises, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 3-bets, CO caps, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (24 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO raises, SB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (30 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 34 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jc Tc (three of a kind, tens).
CO has Ah Ad (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 34 BB. 

This may be a lousy pre-flop call, but how did I do after that? After SB re-raised preflop and BB and UTG+1 called, I knew at least one MP would call and CO would call (I did not think he would cap). The table was pretty loose. I was sure the pot would be large and I thought I should see the flop. The flop action made me think I was up against AK or large pairs AA-QQ in CO and MP2. I thought another 10 or a Jack would give me the best hand, that gave me four outs. I thought I could call the turn--same thing with the river (I discounted the possibility of an 8 and 9 giving me the straight). At the turn, I still thought I had the odds to call the river. When I rivered the ten, I was sure anyone with pocket pairs would bet the river, or it would be checked through (so what). Was the river raise correct?
I just hit a bad run and am tilting a bit, and I am getting myself involved in hands I should not be in--is this one of those hands.

xenthebrain · #2 04-19-2005, 07:00 AM

Fold this one for two more bets preflop.

The rest is fine IMO. But this only happend because you made the mistake preflop. The flop is only correct because so many come along and the pot is so big.

On the turn in this pot you make a right call with your 4 outs and the river raise is right of course. You have likely the best hand here. I think you would only lose to a better T, because I doubt that CO or MP2 have 77,22 or 66.

jaxUp · #3 04-19-2005, 07:12 AM

I think that this preflop call is fine, if not great. You don't get much more multi-way than this. Getting 7:1 with good-looking implied odds this is an easy call when it comes back for 2 preflop.

xenthebrain · #4 04-19-2005, 07:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think that this preflop call is fine, if not great. You don't get much more multi-way than this. Getting 7:1 with good-looking implied odds this is an easy call when it comes back for 2 preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right. I'd usually drop this for two more, but with so many involded, JTs is playable.

@bsolute_luck · #5 04-19-2005, 07:37 AM

really, jaxup, this is great? i think i can see the JTs calling with so many along, but i don't understand how the flop is fine. i would think JTs strength is in its straight and flush possibilities- none of which come on the flop. you have a pair of Ts with a Jack kicker.

i know there are a lot of people, but MP2 bets into preflop cappers (set?, AT?), and CO keeps betting (AA-JJ). sure hero gets lucky on river, but why is the flop okay?

nh5150 · #6 04-19-2005, 08:03 AM

i think i would have played it the same almost. definitely wouldnt have folded to the raises on the flop. i dont know if i would have raised the river, but maybe im not that agg yet [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] i say nice hand, well done!

jaxUp · #7 04-19-2005, 08:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
really, jaxup, this is great? i think i can see the JTs calling with so many along, but i don't understand how the flop is fine. i would think JTs strength is in its straight and flush possibilities- none of which come on the flop. you have a pair of Ts with a Jack kicker.

i know there are a lot of people, but MP2 bets into preflop cappers (set?, AT?), and CO keeps betting (AA-JJ). sure hero gets lucky on river, but why is the flop okay?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the tardy reply...I was never commenting on postflop play. Here's what I think of the flop:

well, we have TPMK and are basically certain we're behind, probably to at least 1 overpair and one TP+ hand. The thing is, even if it gets capped 4-ways here, which it looks like it will, we will still be getting 10:1 on calling 4 cold. Not calling the 2 getting 17:1 (or something absurdly great) on what looks like a 3.5 outer would probably be a slightly losing play. I think we need to call here. Unfortunately it gets capped behind, but I have a really hard time finding a fold on this flop, given the pot size.

That being said, I think it's pretty close, and I'm sure a compelling argument can be made for a fold. Time for bed now though, I'll check it out in the uh...night, when I wake up.

xenthebrain · #8 04-19-2005, 08:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
really, jaxup, this is great? i think i can see the JTs calling with so many along, but i don't understand how the flop is fine. i would think JTs strength is in its straight and flush possibilities- none of which come on the flop. you have a pair of Ts with a Jack kicker.

i know there are a lot of people, but MP2 bets into preflop cappers (set?, AT?), and CO keeps betting (AA-JJ). sure hero gets lucky on river, but why is the flop okay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is so huge that it gives you the right odds. There are over 30SB in it and people coming along and you have 4 outs. You just need 1-to-11 to call, and you get it.

@bsolute_luck · #9 04-19-2005, 08:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
really, jaxup, this is great? i think i can see the JTs calling with so many along, but i don't understand how the flop is fine. i would think JTs strength is in its straight and flush possibilities- none of which come on the flop. you have a pair of Ts with a Jack kicker.

i know there are a lot of people, but MP2 bets into preflop cappers (set?, AT?), and CO keeps betting (AA-JJ). sure hero gets lucky on river, but why is the flop okay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is so huge that it gives you the right odds. There are over 30SB in it and people coming along and you have 4 outs. You just need 1-to-11 to call, and you get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

see i don't know if you have 4 outs. your Ts may be dirty, and the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] put 3 on the board. maybe a BDSD with 1.5 outs, but it is gone on the turn. am i looking at this wrong?

jaxUp · #10 04-19-2005, 08:49 AM

Well, The T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is already out, so no need to worry about that. I'm not real worried about a J hitting either, because I'd only be worried about JJ. I think maybe discount the Js to 1.5, and the Ts to 1.75 or so. This is 3.25 outs. Taking into consideration the implied odds, we can call this.

Like I said before, it's a bit close, but I still think it's profitable with implied odds.