200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[stinkypete]

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Turn 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I bet, she raises, I insta 3 bet.

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what's the significance of the insta 3-bet?

are you trying to show strength? i don't see much reason for representing a stronger hand. i highly doubt she's folding a better one. or are you hoping she'll fold a range of hands with odds to draw that she might not to a "regular" 3-bet? what's your read on her perceived significance of the insta 3-bet?

or do you just mean that you 3-bet without having to give it a second thought, knowing it was very likely correct?

[Philuva]

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exactly why 3 betting the turn is a bad play.

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Getting her to fold a hand with 5 outs rather than her taking a free showdown or betting the river if she improves is not a bad play.

If you read my original post I commented on how she seems to raise turn donk bets fairly frequently and I think it is important to 3 bet her in order to take away of her positional edge. Of course, I would never discuss with her what my hand was, but that is just me.

[PokerBob]

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The person who wins most pots when it goes miss-miss is the person with position, period. KJ has little showdown value, and 3 betting makes the pot bigger. Ironically, by doing what you suggest, you make it harder for her to fold on the flop or turn when it is missed around. Why would you build the pot up with this hand? Look back at Steve G's hand against Mimi Tran and think about it. Similar thinking applies here.

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I disagree. In blind steals, it is often the last aggressor who wins the pot, not who has position. KJo indeed has virtually no SD value, but HU play is not always about SD. Sure the pot gets bigger when 3 bets go in preflop. It doesn't change the fact that she is gonna have a really hard time calling a flop bet with A2-A9 if she missed, even if she is getting 7.5:1 instead of 5.5:1. Not to mention the fact that KJ may indeed be the best hand preflop.

[blumpkin22]

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KJo indeed has virtually no SD value

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Not to mention the fact that KJ may indeed be the best hand preflop.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[limon]

she raised the turn w/o a draw. she thought her hand was good. she bets the river on a blank/calls if you lead into her on a helper for you. you make more/lose less.

[PokerBob]

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KJo indeed has virtually no SD value

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Not to mention the fact that KJ may indeed be the best hand preflop.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Philuva]

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she raised the turn w/o a draw. she thought her hand was good. she bets the river on a blank/calls if you lead into her on a helper for you. you make more/lose less.

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No. She raised the turn because she thought her hand might be best and to charge a draw where she could take a free showdown. She knows IF BK called her turn raise there is no value in betting the river unless she imrpoves because either BK is on a draw and will not call or has a made hand better than her hand and will call her river bet. She uses her positional edge to extract the max and lose the min against a passive player. It also has the added benefit of potentially folding some better hands, like 99 ot TT or a weak J.

By BK willing to 3 bet the turn it helps negate some of her positional edge as she will be less inclined to use this move against him and play more straight forward against him in the future because now she will be more inclined to get to showdown. Plus she doesnt get to she his cards which has added benefits (until he tells her).

An important note in all of this is that BK needs to realize that her future turn raises against him will probably have more strength as she now must fear a turn 3 bet from him and she will be less willing to do this with marginal hands.

I guess you didn't bother to count the size of the pot.

After Terri's raise on the turn, there is 8.25BB in the pot. If BK just calls, she gets infinite odds on a 5-outer. If he 3-bets, she is getting 10.25:1 (plus implied odds) on an 8:1 shot. Her fold to his 3-bet is incorrect and loses money for her and wins money for BK. So his 3-bet turns out to be a great play.

-v

[Philuva]

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I guess you didn't bother to count the size of the pot.

After Terri's raise on the turn, there is 8.25BB in the pot. If BK just calls, she gets infinite odds on a 5-outer. If he 3-bets, she is getting 10.25:1 (plus implied odds) on an 8:1 shot. Her fold to his 3-bet is incorrect and loses money for her and wins money for BK. So his 3-bet turns out to be a great play.

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Great point vkh. I meant to include that point in my reply as well.

[blumpkin22]

You say that KJ has no showdown value yet say it might win unimproved, hence the [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].