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#4
12-08-2005, 03:00 PM
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Re: A8o
Its tough with the read, but I think if he was going to aggro bluff raise, hed prolly raise that flop to get the SB out. The fact he just calls, but raises the turn, makes me likely to believe its really more of a hand. If he is bluffing tho, he will always bet this river, so I think if you are unsure enough, its worth the call, both for the odds you are getting, and for some info about his play.
Against the super aggro types, I will check these turns a lot and they pretty much always bet it for me, but not sure if I like that multiway. I c/r flop as well 
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#5
12-08-2005, 03:21 PM
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Re: A8o
Your flop play is perfect, there is no reason to build a pot with your holding and trying to protect it w/a bet and a possible raise is excellent.
Tough spot on the turn; AK should raise the flop often I assume you are thinking so yes, call. Therefore, you are likely good here better than 11%, call.
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#6
12-09-2005, 02:35 AM
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Re: A8o
Your flop play is perfect, there is no reason to build a pot with your holding and trying to protect it w/a bet and a possible raise is excellent.
basically what i thought when i did it. granted its only over a small amount of hands, but his aggro factor was high enough that i figured betting into him was the better play here. i felt like he had a hand on the turn for sure, but getting 7 and change to call with 4+ outs + the bluff % and i figured i should call. the river is a situation where i would have folded if i had more data on him. with such a small samlple to work with, i would rather be wrong all the time and call then right most of the time and fold.
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#7
12-19-2005, 12:21 PM
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Re: A8o
[ QUOTE ]
i felt like he had a hand on the turn for sure, but getting 7 and change to call with 4+ outs + the bluff % and i figured i should call. [/ QUOTE ] But you aren't getting that much if you intend to call a river bet as well. And considering that if you improve you probably only get one additional bet out of villain since you are oop, your implied odds to peel aren't all that great either. Villain has to be bluffing around 40% of the time for calling down to be correct here because around 15% - 20% of the time he will improve to win anyway. With implied odds and discounted outs you are getting around 7.5:1 to either peel then check-fold the river unimprovedor to peel and bet/call the river if you hit one of your 5 outs. Your hand is barely good enough to do this.
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#8
12-19-2005, 05:54 AM
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Re: A8o
Everyone seems to think that a TAG will raise AK on this flop so when he raises turn we have to call it down.
When BB bets out he normally got a pair, even if this flop is pretty drawish. And if he got a pair, he will not give this up, and if he got 8 we are often getting 3bet if we raise on button with our overs. But if TAG on button call and SB (auto)calls, we got a pot of 9SB and since we probably have to hit anyway I dont see the problem of keeping another guy in. Also, on turn BB will normally not bet a draw again if both players call flop, but more often if its HU. And if BB was betting a really weak pair he will bet this to less often, maybe he will give up if turn is a bit scary, maybe thinking its to big chance SB is hit by a better pair. But lets say TAG raises this flop with good overs like AK or AQ. What will he do on turn those 7/8 when he dont hit? Bet again when he just thought other guy flopped a pair? Take a freecard and call river since now we showed weakness? Check and fold river? If SB folds and BB calls we get 1 to 4 on our flopraise, if we are 3bet even worse. If we just call and SB calls we are getting 1 to 8. Also: If the TAG on button really wanted the other guy to fold because he thought he was behind attacking on this ragflop with a loose guy in SB got to be wrong? A turnraise if a scary card hit is much stronger, that will often make SB fold and can make BB fold a small pair (or even a pair of 8s). Call flop and raise turn if it is J or higher is a good line, at leat if we think BB is capable of folding a pair. Maybe what everyone says is that other players - but not me! - would raise this flop with overs. But I think I see it a bit to often from TAGs to really believe this.
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#9
12-19-2005, 06:33 AM
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Re: A8o
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe what everyone says is that other players - but not me! - would raise this flop with overs. But I think I see it a bit to often from TAGs to really believe this. [/ QUOTE ] I certainly wouldn't raise this flop with AK. There is no reason why a TAG BB would bet out unless he wanted to be raised. If he just wanted to have the flop value bet he would checkcall or checkraise. That's really all Button needs to know about his overcards. It's also very worth remembering this is a button steal. AK or the like is an unlikely hand. Could be K7 or T9 or ... I'll fold a lot of steal hands in this situation when BB bets. Why should I try and make something out of QT when I think the BB has a pair and SB is still to act? Thanks for the warning.
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#10
12-19-2005, 07:12 AM
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Re: A8o
[ QUOTE ]
It's also very worth remembering this is a button steal. AK or the like is an unlikely hand. Could be K7 or T9 or ... I'll fold a lot of steal hands in this situation when BB bets. Why should I try and make something out of QT when I think the BB has a pair and SB is still to act? [/ QUOTE ] yep, good points, agree with both
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