($27) Raise size question

[The Yugoslavian]

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The sad fact of the matter is with players betting and calling 80 into a ~500 pot, you're likely not stacking anywhere here or extracting many more chips anyway which is a bit sad. That's one reason why calling that preflop raise isn't necessarily a good idea.

Yugoslav

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I knew the SB was coming with any two. I figured that with 2 callers, the EP limpers would be strongly tempted to come along as well... if say only one of them calls and the BB folds I'm calling 80 to win 260 in a 4 way pot with position. That means I need to win about ~440 more in a 4 way pot every time to make it correct.

Plus since this is a Turbo, it's a big mistake to fold too much.

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Oh I get the rationale. I don't think many people think about why one should fold it though.

Yugoslav

Depends on how many idiots are in the hand. The flush draw is the scariest and will be around 3-1 to come in by the river (depending on the possibility that a flush draw might also have a straight draw). 660 to you, with the first person behind you needing to call X-80 to win 660+X, so you need X to be 450 to be giving them 3-1 immediately. Of course, you want to take into account implied odds if they hit (and the fact that you really only need to bet around 300 for the first caller to make a mistake on this street). I'd say around 600-700 is probably enough of a mistake to be good.

Except that if idiot caller #1 has top pair and calls, the flush draws start getting priced in by his dead money. Add in the fact that there's at least a 3rd of the deck that's a scare card on the turn and that idiots with flush and straight draws will often make the mistake of calling regardless of your bet (not to mention overpairs), and I think you need to bet more than 700, and you might as well push. Worst case is you fold the draws and pick up a 580 chip profit, but I'd be surprised if you don't get at least one caller.

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I want to raise an amount that will make it a mistake for a draw to call, but not so much that everyone folds anyway. The question is, how much is that?

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Well, assuming you can't fold any turn, the pot essentially already has your entire stack in it. So, the pot's effectively got 2320. Flush draws are better than 2:1, so you could raise to ~1k or something. This is a pretty clear push, IMHO.

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That's a much better way of looking at it than my convulted logic. Thanks.

[microbet]

Yeah, I'd have folded preflop too.

[microbet]

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In short stack STT you don't need to protect your hand as much as extract value with it. This concept is much more applicable IMO to other structures of poker.

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I don't agree.

[The once and future king]

Stack 1700+ BB20 Site Stars bet 80. Calling that every time.
The more people in the pot before me the more I am calling. Stackage potential pre flop is large well relatively at least.

That is 80 chips put to good use. Risk what risk?, reward YAY.

[The Yugoslavian]

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In short stack STT you don't need to protect your hand as much as extract value with it. This concept is much more applicable IMO to other structures of poker.

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I don't agree.

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Yeah, you're right......it's a very secondary or tertiary concept to what is really guiding your decision in other structures of poker too.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Yugoslav

[Matt R.]

With a bet and 3 calls on this flop, I think a push is in order. You really need to put in a strong raise with this board and 3 other people in the hand, who apparently like what they're holding. A pot sized raise is about half your chips, so just stick it all in there. If you start dinking around with small (less than pot sized) raises, you're giving the players on draws great implied odds to hit their straight or flush against you, as you won't be able to get away from a pot that's >2x your remaining chips with a set. I think you'll be surprised how often you get called in this spot as well.

And FWIW, I think the preflop call is standard.

[microbet]

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In short stack STT you don't need to protect your hand as much as extract value with it. This concept is much more applicable IMO to other structures of poker.

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I don't agree.

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Yeah, you're right......it's a very secondary or tertiary concept to what is really guiding your decision in other structures of poker too.

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Yugoslav

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To be a little more precise, I think protecting your hand generally is more important in STTs than in ring games. I think that that is a consequence of each additional chip being worth less than the previous.

Whether that means protecting your hand is *very* important or not depends on what the definition of "is" is, er, I mean "very" is.

I've got to go collecting pine cones. I want you all to hash this out while I'm gone. Thank you.

[skipperbob]

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.it's a very secondary or tertiary concept to what is really guiding your decision in other structures of poker too.

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"tertiary" [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]You wouldn't know what a tertiary was if it slid outa your buttcrack coated in Baby Oil [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]