God & String Theory

[fatdave]

I wouldn't say I'm a Christian, or a Taoist, or much of anything, really.... but this is a long rambling bit I wrote, and I would like to get some comments on it.

These theoretical concepts are basically ideas that have been thought up over and over since the pre-Socratics and by anybody that's ever done psychedelics. The concept is that there is a "theory for everything"... the current theory involves string theory or m-theory.... that is, saying that superstrings are the tiniest bits of reality possible, and those superstrings build upon each other to form our reality.

Going with this concept, if superstrings really do make up everything, then we are all made of the same things... you and I are made of the same "stuff" as this chair, that tree, water...

Therefore, if everything is made of everything, and God is supposed to be everything, then we are all already a part of God and God is already within all of us (as well as all other living and inanimate things).

And so, we have an omnipresent state of existence called God. (Note: not the anthropomorphic God... just an all-encompassing God)

And this omnipresent state of God is within all of us. The central idea around Taoism is that there is an underlying and all-permeating force within everything, called the Tao (or the Way). Through meditation, once can become attuned with this inner force. One can learn to recognize the Way of the universe. We can establish a relationship with this permeating force and let it guide our lives on a natural, spiritual organic course.

Of course, since this force is already within us, all we are really doing is learning to know ourselves. Additionally, since we are all part of the same force as the rest of the world, we can learn to "let go"... a point at which our ego ceases to exist and we become a part of the Way. Although we were already a part of the way, through meditation we can shed our phsyical sense of self and become one with God.

I'm sure you can see where this is going.... superstrings, the Tao, God, "what is", "I am", "be", the ether, a singularity... these are all the same thing.... and I will sometimes use them interchangeably.

Back to superstrings... if superstrings are the ultimate theory for everything, that is, the base unit upon which everything else is built, then that means if we were able to put the entire universe under a microscope and plot out the individual locations of each superstring, as well as be aware of the way the interact with each other, then we would be able to plot out previous states of existence. That is to say, the organization of all pieces of energy and matter in the universe would form one large equation. From that equation, we would be able to calculate previous positions and interactions and other equations.

If we are able to algorythmically define reality from the past into a calculable equation, then conceivably, we would also be able to calculate reality into the future, as well as linearly. For the future, if we know the position of each current particle, and how each particle will interact, then we will be able to calculate future positions of each particle. To calculate something linearly, we could calculate back to a specific point in time, and then from that point, concentrate on calculating our way back to the present using a different course and arriving at a different point.

To provide an example, let's pretend there existed a human being whose brain had the mental capacity to be able to calculate these extremely large equations. If this human being was existing on Dec 8, 2004, then they would be able to perceive the present state of reality, examine this state (aka "equation) and then factor to the future and determine future states of reality. Alternatively, say this human existed in Ohio. They could examine their current reality, factor back and follow each pre-existing state of reality back to a certain point, and then follow the interactions of those pre-existing particles with other pre-existing particles, and follow those along a different path, to arrive back to the present, and be able to calculate the existing state of reality in, say, California. While the person wouldn't have physically moved, their mind would be able to determine other states of existence based on time or place. If such a person existed, then during those moments of extreme calculation, they would be experiencing the capacity for ESP. They might not "know" how they are doing, but in their "minds eye", they are perceiving the future, or are seeing other places that are existing at the same time.

Additionally, lets say there was a human being that was so intuned to "the way" (aka, superstrings, or the permeating force of everything) that they could perceive the interactions between the atomic structure of the world around them and their own human body's atomic structure. Some atomic theories state that if given enough time, if a person were to constantly try to walk through a wall, that eventually the atomic arrangment would be such that for that very moment, they would be able to walk through the wall.

However, that method is pure brute force, just trying it over and over again. What would happen if there were a human that could perceive those atomic arrangements, and perhaps even shift them around on demand whenever they wanted, then they could conceivably walk through walls whenever they wanted. If they could do this, perhaps what else would they be able to do? Perhaps they would be able to calculate and perceive the atomic structure of water, and allow their body to interact in such a way with water that the person would actually be able to.... walk on water. Perhaps they could use this same capacity to alter the molecular structure of water and... turn water into wine. Perhaps they could use this same skill to "reach into" another human being (really since we are all part of the same "stuff", they are really only reaching into the ether, the way, whatever) and change the other humans body so much that... the blind would be able to see again.

It is my contention that there did indeed exist a Jesus of Nazareth, that he did have this capacity. He was able to perform these miracles because he was so intuned with "the way" that it become possible for him.

Additionally, since he was so in tuned with the way, he would be able to perceive every part of the way, every part of the universe, every part of God. He would know that God is within all of us, and that we are all made of God. Was he the son of God? Yes, in the sense that if God is the permeating source of everything, then we are all the children of God. In a sense, we are god.

Much like some people are "smarter" than others, some people have a better ability to perceive this capacity within themselves. While I am not sure if this capacity would be genetically or deterministically defined, I think that we all have it on some level. As a result, we have telekinesis, ESP, psychics, deja vu, miracles, talking to God...

So, in a sense, we all have the sense to be like Jesus. We should be thankful that he had such a love for humanity that he would sacrifice himself for us. Then again, he already knew that he was a part of everything (including God) already, so really he was only sacrificing his physical self.

Then we have the Buddhas... I feel they had the same capacity, but they chose to use that capacity on a different level, a more internalized level. Whereas Abrahamic religions taught reverence for this state of God (although they personified it), Eastern religions taught reverence for the way. They were both worshipping the same "thing", just in different ways.

Eastern religions stress introspection and mediation in order to become one with the way (or the Tao). Western religions use mythology to influence people into becoming more spiritual and becoming one with God. Both of these concepts also have something else in common.... zen and grace.

So, in a sense.... God/Tao is in everything, we are all God/Tao, God/Tao is within us, we can find God/Tao through introspection and meditation.

Superstrings are the Tao... the Tao is God.

[Superfluous Man]

Good job thinking of an intellect that can determine the future given the current state of the universe. Too bad you're a couple centuries too late. Though couching Jesus as Laplace's demon is a nice touch.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

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...if we were able to put the entire universe under a microscope and plot out the individual locations of each superstring, as well as be aware of the way the interact with each other...

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this is impossible (at least for now) becuase of the uncertainty principle.

[NotReady]

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Therefore, if everything is made of everything, and God is supposed to be everything, then we are all already a part of God and God is already within all of us (as well as all other living and inanimate things).


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In theology this is called monism, there is no essential difference between God and man or for that matter between any one thing in reality and another. This is directly contradictory to the Bible which says that God created the universe along with many passages that clearly state there is a qualitative difference between God and everything else.

This is an important point because almost everything else you believe will be affected by what you believe on this issue. In the garden the temptation the serpent gave to Eve was "You shall be like God". Your position is just a rephrasing of that. In one sense or another the quest of the non-theist is to be God or to be like Him.

The rest of your post is interesting, and I don't deny the possibility of a theory of everything, except everything must be defined to not include God. Your comments on Jesus are based on your theory, not on what the Bible says about Him.

[RainDog]

I have become discombobulated sorting through the many ideas running rampant in this forum. These are perhaps things that I myself have thought upon at some time or even debated over with another. However, the nature of this group and the efforts many of you have put into laying things out in writing have catapulted me into a hefty amount of soul searching. And I thank you all for that (As this is the closest thing to scholarly study of Philosophy that I may ever arrive at). I must say I'm much more of a lurker here than a poster. At this point, for me, learning is more important than teaching as I have so many things to contemplate before I am capable of discerning any sort of concrete answers (if that shall ever be possible).

But now onto this notion of "String Theory & God" as you put it. It is certainly an attractive concept. While applying it to Jesus is interesting and possible, I can't readily apply this theory to him just because it "might" work. Seems too eager and radical of a leap in logic to me.

I'm am also very attracted to Quantum Theory and the realms of possibility that it has opened up. When one sees what he expects to see out of a subatomic particle it really makes mom's old line, "You can do anything if you put your heart to it", a degree more convincing. I like thinking that the world really is what I make of it. And I needn't be so keen on destroying others notions of the world (unless they violently interfere with mine).

But now, can these two things (string theory and quantum theory) coexist? Because (and correct me if I'm wrong), string theory seems to suggest an absolute future. And I'm actually less fond of the theory if it leads to life being an algorithm that can be danced along by a superior ESP capable mind.

Talk to me.

Oh, and to NotReady. I agree that the OP seems to trying to justify things in the Bible which leads to some contridiction. However, the bible needn't be an all-or-none entity when building these relations. In theory, "Everything" can certainly encompass God.

[J. Stew]

I like some of the initial presumptions, linking Tao to some energy or force that you are trying to explain scientifically. The part about Jesus having the ability to foresee by calculating massive equations seems like a stretch to link Jesus with your string theory though. Couldn't he just be a person like you and me who was very in tune with his natural self which is God which is everywhere and infinite and from which he acted naturally.

Also, could you substitute quality for grace in "zen and grace" and feel like you said the same thing? Just wondering.

[NotReady]

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Oh, and to NotReady. I agree that the OP seems to trying to justify things in the Bible which leads to some contridiction. However, the bible needn't be an all-or-none entity when building these relations. In theory, "Everything" can certainly encompass God.


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If God is everything there is no God. That's just pantheism and the word god becomes meaningless.

[RainDog]

Ok, if that's how you're looking at it...makes sense. I agree it's just pantheism really, but the word "god" needn't become meaningless (Though maybe it wouldn't be capitalized anymore ) [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[fatdave]

Thanks for the response so far.

To try to clarify:

First off, I use the term superstring lightly. Even though I may say "superstring", just consider it to be the "theory for everything", or "building block of everything". If something smaller than a superstring is theorized, than that will be the same concept to which I am referring.

Some people perceive and interact with the same things, in very different ways. Person A uses intution, Person B analyzes all the variables in a situation and makes their decision based on that.

All those variables that a Person B analyzes, are subconsciously analyzed by Person A. So, the feeling of "in tune with his natural self" is equivalent to being able to perceive on an empirical level.

That is not to say that somebody who can interact scientifically (in the future, say) with superstrings is on the same mental or spiritual level as somebody who is enlightened. One may have a more emotional connection with the universe, the other a more logical one.

In regards to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle... I'll paraphrase an audiobook I listened to about death. The narrator says that "even though we may not have a television to manifest television signals, doesn't mean there aren't television signals flying around everywhere. Likewise, just because we don't have a [Tao detecting machine] doesn't mean that the [Tao isn't everywhere]" (he was really talking about souls, but I think the same thing applies. So, just because we currently can't detect strings in the physical world, doesn't mean there's not some hidden receptor in our brain that can analyze them, even if we don't know what it's doing, and can't always interpret the results.

So... let me give another example:

A) A buddhist monk meditates and becomes enlightened. He feels that the universe and he are one.

B) A scientist develops a machine to detect superstrings... he can view the superstrings in his body, and on the lab table, and see that on that level, they all seem the same.

C) A Christian prays to God, feels grace, and feels a strong bond with God.

D) A woman reads the thoughts of people she has never met.

E) A religious figure performs a "miracle"

I feel that the "forces" that each of these people interact with, is the very same thing. Imagine a wave passing through a field of superstrings at a certain frequency. Perhaps one person's mind is subconsiously intune to that frequency, and can therefore read minds. Perhaps somebody else's mind is in tune to a different frequency, and can feel the grace of God. Now, they might not know it... and may only be perceiving these things subconsiously... some might receive these signals their entire life, but never know what to do with them. Others may receive these signals, not know where they came from, but consider it "intuition" or an "message from God".


Example 2:

A) The scientific logic used to explain string theory,

B) The religious mythologies,

C) The meditative attempts to feel enlightened,

...are all different methods of interacting (or learning or trying to interact) with the exact same thing. Some people feel God's grace through prayer and niceties, taught to them through mythologies and parables. Some people feel enlightened through personal meditation.

So, to summarize, the Tao, God and Superstrings are the same "force" surrounding us all. Grace, enlightenment, ESP are all different results of interacting with this same force, using different methods.

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To provide an example, let's pretend there existed a human being whose brain had the mental capacity to be able to calculate these extremely large equations. If this human being was existing on Dec 8, 2004, then they would be able to perceive the present state of reality, examine this state (aka "equation) and then factor to the future and determine future states of reality. Alternatively, say this human existed in Ohio. They could examine their current reality, factor back and follow each pre-existing state of reality back to a certain point, and then follow the interactions of those pre-existing particles with other pre-existing particles, and follow those along a different path, to arrive back to the present, and be able to calculate the existing state of reality in, say, California. While the person wouldn't have physically moved, their mind would be able to determine other states of existence based on time or place. If such a person existed, then during those moments of extreme calculation, they would be experiencing the capacity for ESP. They might not "know" how they are doing, but in their "minds eye", they are perceiving the future, or are seeing other places that are existing at the same time.

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Uncertainty Principle has already been brought up, but I guess you're saying although it's unobservable, that doesn't disprove the existence of these forces. However, does calculating this equation to peer into the future change it? Does it always see the future, past, dimensions of space?

This supreme being would also have to be able to store this data, and over what time period can this being calculate this equation (what's it's computational power?). Are either of these two things limiting factors on the possibility of whether this can be done? This is quite a brain, and I'm not sure if the laws of physics allow for it to be a possibility as we know of.

Also, are multible possibilities for the future taken into account (maybe given different possibilities of likelihood), or is the future determined like the past, present?

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Additionally, lets say there was a human being that was so intuned to "the way" (aka, superstrings, or the permeating force of everything) that they could perceive the interactions between the atomic structure of the world around them and their own human body's atomic structure. Some atomic theories state that if given enough time, if a person were to constantly try to walk through a wall, that eventually the atomic arrangment would be such that for that very moment, they would be able to walk through the wall.

However, that method is pure brute force, just trying it over and over again. What would happen if there were a human that could perceive those atomic arrangements, and perhaps even shift them around on demand whenever they wanted, then they could conceivably walk through walls whenever they wanted. If they could do this, perhaps what else would they be able to do? Perhaps they would be able to calculate and perceive the atomic structure of water, and allow their body to interact in such a way with water that the person would actually be able to.... walk on water. Perhaps they could use this same capacity to alter the molecular structure of water and... turn water into wine. Perhaps they could use this same skill to "reach into" another human being (really since we are all part of the same "stuff", they are really only reaching into the ether, the way, whatever) and change the other humans body so much that... the blind would be able to see again.

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To do this would again require storage of information on each superstring (or atom or whatever small thing it is that needs to be controlled). Also, an ability to access information or control these things this would require energy that comes from where? How does that energy affect things?

I guess I don't have much of a point, but I'd appreciate it if anyone could address my idle thoughts, cuz I'm pretty clueless here. But yeah, it's Laplace's demon as has been stated by someone.