ATo preflop - I have no idea

[adsman]

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I don't count those backdoor thingies as outs,

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You might want to learn to do so.

[mvoss]

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Yea sorry about that. I'm just tired after a whole night of playing.

Anyway, I would put us at 3 outs, any ace. I don't count those backdoor thingies as outs, but our equity would be somewhat like 15-18% so a call would be ok.

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No problem.

I think you should reread the SSHE section on counting outs. You shouldn't count the Aces as full outs and you should take backdoor draws into account. You're losing money if you don't estimate your no. of outs correctly.

Early on with no reads, I fold this with a UTG limper. You are too exposed to a squeeze play. Maybe 10% of the time I raise for the fun of it, but usually NOT without reads.

[stlip]

With no reads I'm OK with a limp call here. I don't like raising an unknown UTG when I could well end up playing HU with the worse hand. A limp call gives a lot of weak hands a reason to call behind and make it a big profitable multiway pot.

MP1's raise and bet when everyone checks leaves us with a wide range of beatable hands that he could be on. Closing the action there is every reason to take these pot odds with our backdoor draws and the possibility that a pair of As or even a pair of Ts could be good enough to win this pot.

fold preflp

fold or call flop, its neutral ev

aha sorry i shouldnt even have posted the postflop action, its my fault so im not going to criticise anyone for ignoring the 'preflop only' part. postflop i was multitabling and watching a movie on a 17inch screen lol.... my bad again, i just didnt think the postflop action was debatable, looking back i see some good arguments for actually continuing

i was really interested though in preflop action because lately ATo in EP and MP im having a lot of trouble with, particularly when limpers are involved.... not that im losing money, but im just guessing at the correct play, raising calling or folding based on how tilted i am

the answers so far for what i should do preflop are...

Raise preflop
Raise/call preflop
Call preflop
Raise/fold preflop
Fold preflop
Call preflop
Raise/fold preflop
Call/fold preflop
Call preflop

so

Raise: 4
Call: 5
Fold: 4


aiyahh........ =(


i would really appreciate anyone that argued a certain way in terms of preflop giving reasons why.

Raise:

Pros: Takes control through dialogue and improving position, especially if the table is on average w/t postflop.
Discourages multiway action in general, where ATo is very weak (slippery slope); also can fold better hands such as AJo, which would otherwise have us dominated
Pushes equity edge against a random field.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

115,430 games 13.907 secs 8,300 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 17.0293 % 15.72% 01.31% { ATo }
Hand 2: 12.0003 % 10.95% 01.06% { random }
Hand 3: 11.9042 % 10.84% 01.06% { random }
Hand 4: 11.8424 % 10.79% 01.05% { random }
Hand 5: 11.8327 % 10.79% 01.05% { random }
Hand 6: 11.6752 % 10.65% 01.03% { random }
Hand 7: 11.8117 % 10.74% 01.07% { random }
Hand 8: 11.9046 % 10.83% 01.07% { random }

Cons: im not even sure if there is enough equity to push, considering anyone that coldcalls us almost certainly has a better hand and now has position on us postflop.
Wasting 2BB instead of 1BB to see a flop, if reraised we waste 3

Call:
Pros: A decent hand with some high card value, why not see a flop?
Avoids the postflop expectation cut ala SSHE pg. 88; it doesnt tie your hand to the pot and you can escape easily a bad flop without losing anything in metagame

Cons: This hand falls apart multiway and 2 limpers is totally encouraging further limpers as fish school behind us, if we hit a lone ace our kicker will most likely not hold up
Loses that very thin equity edge discussed earlier.

Fold:
Pros+Cons: Perfectly zero expectation. If both earlier plays are longrun -ev then folding is correct.

[jaxUp]

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If you thought the ATo was worth playing, I think it would have been worth the price to raise it from EP and call the reraise if MP1 goes over the top. If MP1 reraises pre-flop and raises on the flop (assuming you check), then I'd be more sure that the villain has an overpair (or at least hit the top pair).


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If this kind of thing happens it doesn't really matter what villain has. A PF3-bettor will almost always have ATo dominated unless he's a total LAG.

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It might cost you two more bets (the raise and call of a reraise) to gain this information, but in the long run, it might be worth it.

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This logic is flawed. When we raise preflop, we are raising because we have solid equity with a good hand, and because we gain the ability to "take control" of the hand postflop. However, from EP with ATo, I don't think we have enough equity to raise preflop. A call would be superior.

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Otherwise, it just looks like this op could run over the table with anything.

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But Villain is not running over the table, as far as we know. If he starts to, then we can adjust our game accordingly. It is not worth it to start raising marginal hands just so that villain doesn't start to run over the table. You will lose a lot of money this way.

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Given the way the hand played out, the fold on the flop was a good play.

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at 11:1, I think a strong case can be made for calling here, when we consider our backdoor draws and implied odds.

thanks for having a look mvoss, i unfortunately havent seen the posts you mean =(

i think its worthwhile putting KJo in this boat as well, to me KTo is a clear fold and KQo a clear raise

btw, im not gonna keep counting the 'votes', but i think it looks about 7 a piece now for preflop action haha

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Anyway, I would put us at 3 outs, any ace. I don't count those backdoor thingies as outs, but our equity would be somewhat like 15-18% so a call would be ok.

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and no offense heaven but this is pretty bad. if you have SSHE then re-read the outs section, or do a search for: overcard outs, reverse domination, or backdoor draws

If you're calling ATo from early position preflop, you're inviting a multiway pot with a hand that doesn't play well against multiple opponents.

I conditioned my answer on the premise that the player would consider this hand worth playing. I think there might be some value in playing this hand, but unless you give yourself even a chance of getting heads up with ATo, there's no point in playing. That's why I'd raise instead of call, if I play this hand in the first place.

[btspider]

regardless of what you think he should do preflop, many of you are not considering the fact that this is 8-handed and he is closer to the button than a 10-handed UTG+1.

also, draws to pairs and backdoors do not have good implied odds. you are not going to war on the turn when you catch one pair.. nor will you usually get much action on the river when a one card straight is on board or the 3-flush is out there.

OP really needs to stop the action at his flop decision.