Can YOU get away from this hand?

How much does the CO have before going into the hand?

How long until the blinds go up?

How far from the money?

[Gar Pike]

What is your strategy for finding out if you are ahead or behind? How does that change with the size of your stack in relation to the blinds? What was your plan for this hand, when you decided to play?

Follow your plan.

You can hardly make a reasonable-sized flop bet, and then fold if re-raised, with your stack size. If you check, do you assume you're behind if somebody bets?

Close your eyes, shove it in and hope. (Win or go home early strategy)

Or fold immediamente when it's your turn to act. (survive to barely in the money strategy)

Either way, you're not going to know if you were ahead or behind until it's all over.

I would expect, if your assesment of the table is good, that you pushed and lost to a pair of Qs or an AT.
or the SB played a JT after all those callers... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
or you folded and the winner turned over AK [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

It might be that if you had bet more preflop (say, 400-500?) you could have check/folded the flop with an easier conscience, but...

Of course, the snap answer to the question you asked is " Send away for the ACME Mind-reading course, 'Mind-reading for Fun and Profit'" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Regards

Gar

[MLG]

with 1750 in my stack and 1200 in the pot and blinds at 50/100 im not looking to get away from JJ on an all undercard flop. While its true that against 3 opponents its more likely that one of them outflopped you, you can't play this hand slowly since there are a couple of possible draws. Sorry you lost.

[Bigwig]

.18 VPIP is 'tight?' Seriously. I would normally consider that average, if not loose.

[Laomedon]

[ QUOTE ]
In this case, what you suggest is what I did --- I bet 800 figuring I would decide what to do based on the bets. The cutoff raised all-in, the button and SB both folded and it's back to me. The VPIP number by the way is % of the time they have "voluntarily" put in money before the flop. In this case his VPIP of .14 means that only 14% of the time they put money in preflop, i.e. they are folding most of their hands preflop.

So, do you call the all-in raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

insta-call

In any case, online, I probably call here. Note that I suck online which is why I don't really play online.

In live play I think there would be a lot of other factors that would come into play but the plain and simple fact is that it's hard to get a real solid read after playing 50 hands with someone online. Unless this is some real important $1000 buy-in tournament or something like that you might as well call without putting too much thought into it. You are getting 3 to 1 to call, you won't have an optimal amount of money left if you fold, and you still have some outs if beaten. For low buy in online, that's good enough for me.

I still think betting 800 on the flop was the best play, even if you will call no matter what if reraised.

[luckycharms]

I am a big fan of the check-raise-all-in in CERTAIN situations, but I think this is a very bad spot for it. The hero's chipstack is about the size of the pot, and so far, i assume that everyone in the pot has about the same...

If you check and someone in position bets with, for example AKo (one of the board's suit) they'll bet nearly the size of the pot... so they bet 900 into a 1300 pot, and you push (which is only about 500 more).....

The pot is now 3600, and it only costs AK 500 chips to see the turn and river (he has a 26% chance of beating your jacks)... needless to say, he's got correct odds to call, and his bet was probably correct in the first place. Anyways, if i could, i wouldn't see a single showdown in a tourney, and pushing immediately here seems like the best way to avoid a showdown.

just some thoughts

[allenciox]

It isn't "quite" a low-buyin tourney, it's a $150+12, so people tend to play reasonably. I play these frequently. This is the way my thought process went when the CO raised all-in:

1) I don't figure him for QQ or KK because he didn't reraise preflop. The problem with not reraising with these hands is what to do when an overcard comes on the flop, and this player appeared reasonably strong. AA might well cold-call in position preflop, to try to take the chips later, but often would reraise as well.

2) He is a tight player (.14 VPIP is quite tight considering that is through all the early rounds of the tourney when people are quite a bit looser) and he doesn't really have implied odds to coldcall with a small pair, but he might (remember, he doesn't know that anybody else is going to call after him). A medium pair, like 88, is a possibility though, figuring on a rag flop he can decide whether he can pick it up or not.

3) I can see him calling this with AQ (particularly suited) or AK. I don't think there are any other unpaired cards he would play here.

So I figure his raise all-in could be due to AA, (perhaps) KK, 88, TT or JJ (although these are rare), and "perhaps" a 99 if he figured my bet was a continuation bet. Or it could be due to an AQ or AK with a flush draw. If he does have an AA, KK, or 88, I have two outs plus a backdoor straight draw. But the other hands I am currently beating. I actually had a strong feeling he had AA, but I couldn't rely on that. So I called.

He turned over QQ, no Jack came, and I was out of the tourney.

[Gar Pike]

"1) I don't figure him for QQ or KK because he didn't reraise preflop."

I would smooth call a PF raise with a QQ or KK every so often, for just that reason. Poker is about deception, at one level, and while you could be scrood if a A or K flop, the risk is worth it if it puts confusion on the enemy.

I think Harrington Vol 1 talks about not always raising PF with High PP, for this very reason.

Regards,

Gar

[PokerGoblin]

[ QUOTE ]
with 1750 in my stack and 1200 in the pot and blinds at 50/100 im not looking to get away from JJ on an all undercard flop. While its true that against 3 opponents its more likely that one of them outflopped you, you can't play this hand slowly since there are a couple of possible draws. Sorry you lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

This pretty much sums it up.

There is a lot of bad advice in this thread.

It's a tough situation, but you have a few things to take from it:

You make the point that pushing will only be called by hands you don't want to see. True, but what do you want? You want to get away from this? There aren't a ton of favorable flops for JJ. Especially against three opponents. You're out of position w/ a scary flop and everyone has you covered.

You made your continuation bet looking like you want action. If you didn't want action, why did you call all in? You knew you were either way behind or only slightly ahead of say AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for example. On the other hand, assume someone flat calls and the turn is a blank, you're going to push anyhow giving your opponent(s) at least 3.5 to 1 to call. Would you lay down AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in that spot?

You need to bet as much as you can when your fold EQ is highest. Push. And hope they fold. There's 13 big blinds in the pot already. Thats enough for me in that situation.

It is unwise to assume someone in late position would automatically reraise a bigger pair. The CO cold called, probably thinking the button and blinds would fold (if he is as observant as you). After the button and SB came along, he probably wished he had reraised.

Fearing someone has 88 is retarded. If it's the case, then so be it. You still have 4 outs.

PG