Rake Structures, Rake Back, and Bonus Whoring?

[Idaho Ave]

Hello all, I would like to pose a simple question which probably has a complicated answer.

I tried bonus whoring, using Homer's and BW guidlines starting at the cryptos. BW.com notes that they have unfavorable rake structures, especially shorthanded.
Waiting for the snail mailed pin number is nusance
The games aren't easy, and the game speed is slow.

Then their is party and the party skins which 2+2 has criticized for several reasons, rake structures being one of them, but loves the amount of fish at the site.

Then I got a rakeback at eurobet, and couldn't stand the color of the table, and the truely ridiculous arrangement of people sitting around the table. Ugly, distracting, and all together unpleasant, I was unable to find an alternate module also their cashier system is bs.

My question is this: Considering rake structure, bonuses, player quality, gamespeed, cashier services, and the appearance of the module. Why would anybody play anywhere else besides PokerStars? The players are awful(at low limits), the rake structures are favorable, the games speed is fast, their cashier is perfect, and the module is reasonably pleasant to look at.

I would like to hear your thoughts
thanks in advance
Idaho

[aK13]

I actually find stars slightly choppy to play at, but it is still one of my favorite sites, just because I love their SNG format.

At the party skins, you can download skins that replace the background, and you can turn off the characters, and make it look much smoother clean cut. Here is how mine looks.

[SoCalRugger]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is this: Considering rake structure, bonuses, player quality, gamespeed, cashier services, and the appearance of the module. Why would anybody play anywhere else besides PokerStars? The players are awful(at low limits), the rake structures are favorable, the games speed is fast, their cashier is perfect, and the module is reasonably pleasant to look at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bonuses aren't as frequent
No rakeback
More fish at Party skins
Better game selection at Party skins

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is this: Considering rake structure, bonuses, player quality, gamespeed, cashier services, and the appearance of the module. Why would anybody play anywhere else besides PokerStars? The players are awful(at low limits), the rake structures are favorable, the games speed is fast, their cashier is perfect, and the module is reasonably pleasant to look at.


[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds more like a Pokerstars ad than a question, nevertheless I'll bite on the chance you are sincere.

1) Eurobet

If you've got a rakeback deal, you have to factor this into your overall monthly + & -, and considering the swings, a rakeback deal is a nice bonus ... Pokerstars don't do this.

As for aesthetics, pokermods dot com has modifications to change the look of the table, this is a not a major issue at all IMHO, you play poker for money, in some B&M rooms the sights (and smells) are worse.

The Eurobet interface IMHO isn't as nice as Party's but the ring games are the same so it's worth it, and Party doesn't do a rakeback deal.

2) Pokerstars

I like Pokerstars but wouldn't try and grind it out there personally, I just don't see the point with no rakeback deal being offered and tougher players than other sites on average.

I suppose Pokerstars is only an ideal choice if your goal is a big tourney, in which case FPP's become a factor in your decision, but I still would rather a rakeback deal.

3) Others

Apart from Cryptos you have the Prima network which I like, and they have some sweet rakeback deals going, + other sites like Ultimatebet, Absolute, & Bodog ... although these sites I believe have pretty good players and not like Party or Prima.

Hope this answers your question(s).

Cheers,
SDM

[liquidboss]

The cashier for Eurobet is quite a bit different than the rest of the skins. It's much easier when you don't have to transfer to and from the sports bookie whenever you want to move money.

[kapw7]

I recently found out that PS is a better deal for rake even when you add rakeback. At least at 2/4 SH I saw adifference close to 50% compared to UB. And I don't think Party is so much different than UB. Unless you gave a 50% rakeback deal then PS looks better.
*According to other posters the difference is 38%. Still not easy to beat.

[Idaho Ave]

Ok to repeat your answers to my question
PS has no rake back
Bonuses are Infrequent
Players are tough
Site is choppy - so on and so fourth.

OK OK OK, so lets compare the amount of rake you pay at party and skins, after you clear you bonus and after you rake back payday. Now compare that the amount you pay at stars, without a rake back or bonus. In this case where do you pay less rake.

I had successfully been able to change my Party Poker module but was unable to do that at eurobet, I would very much like the chance to get a favorable PartySkin with rakeback if it is indeed, a more rake efficient way to go, which at this point I am not convinced.

The players at low limits are not tought at PS, with their WPT advertizing, I would imagine they will get even worse.
This is of course subjective, but I have been more successful at PS than I have been at Eurobet.

Stars SnG turbo tournament format is dope dope dope.

Anyhow, I'll quit on that note, I just want a math expert to take over and tell me which is the most rake effecient way to conduct my poker life.

Thanks For The Feedback
Gratitude,
Idaho

[playersare]

the concept you want to deal with is "maximum theoretical rakeback equivalent". you didn't mention what limits you played but from your posting history I'd presume you're at the smaller stakes end (which is perfectly fine, so am I).

as mentioned before, different sites have different rake schedules, and generally the party and crypto networks charge more than other in terms of average percentage of pot size. however, factoring bonuses in can and does often offset the net return versus sites like poker stars which have favorable everyday rake struture, but infrequent reloads which also cannot be cleared efficiently at low limits.

because both the rake and bonus structures need to be analyzed together in order to determine the true value of your action at any particular site, one-dimentional statements like "party's 10% rake at 50c/$1 is excessive" or "full tilt 100% up to $600 is the highest signup bonus" are generally useless to guide playing decisions, or sometimes even deceptive to poker novices.

here are some examples on how to calculate the rakeback equivalent of a bonus:

Interpoker (8x dealt raked hands)
minumum rake to count towards bonus: 25c
attributed rake per player (10-max): 2.5c
bonus paid per raked hand: 12.5c
theoretical rakeback equivalent: 500%

Party Poker (signup/IGMPAY bonus - 5x dealt raked hands)
minumum rake to count towards bonus: 50c (LHE)
attributed rake per player (10-max): 5c
bonus paid per raked hand: 20c
theoretical rakeback equivalent: 400%

Poker Stars (5FPP per bonus dollar)
minimum rake to count towards bonus: $1**
attributed rake per player (10-max): 10c
bonus paid per raked hand: 20c
theoretical rakeback equivalent: 200%
**minimum rake requirements to earn bonus for $1/2 games and below are less, however there are hands which will also be raked and NOT receive bonus as well.

these examples show that higher rake can definitely be offset by higher bonuses at lower limits.

here are some other max theo rake/bonus percentages I've calculated in the past:
(small stakes fixed-limit hold em)

Paradise - 400%
Absolute - 360%
Party skins (7x reload) - 280%
Gaming Club ($2/4 max BRP) - 200%
Poker Mountain - 200%
Pokerroom - 140%
Bodog - 110% (approx. based on typical VP$IP contributed)
Ultimate Bet - 100%
True Poker - 100%
Games Grid - 100% (not including VFP program)
Tiger Gaming - 80% (proportional contributed)
Golden Palace - 80% (proportional contributed)
Full Tilt - 55%

[smb394]

[ QUOTE ]

Bonuses are Infrequent

I had successfully been able to change my Party Poker module but was unable to do that at eurobet

The players at low limits are not tought at PS, with their WPT advertizing, I would imagine they will get even worse.
This is of course subjective, but I have been more successful at PS than I have been at Eurobet.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I'm going to let others analyze the comparative rakes and address the following points. Bonuses are much more numerous and easier to clear at Party and Skins than at Stars.

It's the same process to change mods at Party and Eurobet. Unzip and overwrite the existing graphics files with the news ones (and inside the client, turn character/dealer off).

When you say you've been more successful at Stars than Eurobet, how long are we talking about? How many hands? This is the biggest issue I think. WHile Stars games are definitely beatable at low limits, I don't see making as much. Table selection is not nearly as good as Party. FWIW, I play low limit HE on Party, and tourneys on Stars.

[12AX7]

Hi playersare,
I'm facinated by your analysis herein. However I don't understand how you are calculating it and what it really means in dollars and cents.

Any chance I could talk you into explaining one of the examples in more detail?