Knowing you are getting quartered L08

[Sean D]

Is it profitable to call down in these situations where 1/4 is likely?


Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, All Call

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, <font color="red">UTG+2 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="red">MP2 raises</font>, SB folds, Hero???

[sy_or_bust]

Intuitively it's a fold, buts since you raised preflop, this pot is pretty large and you might want to call. I doubt it, unless these opponents are bad, but someone should check the math.

[L0QTiS]

Near as I can tell (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) at the time of your turn decision, you'll have to commit 2BB more into a 13BB pot (2BB of which you already committed at this point from PF and flop action).

Assuming UTG+2 doesn't re-raise, and the river goes bet-call-call, you're looking at a 5BB investment with a 4.75BB return assuming you absolutely sure you're going to get quartered - which is a .25 BB loss vs a 2BB loss if you fold the turn.

A somewhat worse scenario - UTG+2 and MP2 Cap the Turn and 2-Bet the flop and you ride along, you're at a 8BB investment with a 5.5BB return again assuming you're going to get quartered - a 2.5BB loss vs a 2BB loss if you folded the turn. It gets worse if they cap the river too. Obviously, if you can guarantee that outcome, then folding the turn would be in order.

That said, and at the lowest limits, I'd probably not fold this unless I knew the players involved were either very agro, or very tight where I could certainly put them on A2. With better reads (or PTO stats), or at the higher limits where I trust the average play is better, I'd likely fold unless the players involved were quite bad.

Then again, you never know. You're 3's might be good for high and 3/4 [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Buzz]

Call.

Buzz

[Sean D]

Well, things got ugly. I did indeed call, and betting got capped on the turn, and also on the river.

ronksol shows [ 9h, 2d, As, Qs ] high card ace.
ronksol shows 6,4,3,2,A for low.
dlmill27 shows [ 6c, 2s, Ac, 4d ] two pairs, sixes and fours.
dlmill27 shows 6,4,3,2,A for low.
sean3d3333 shows [ Ah, Qd, 3s, 2h ] a pair of threes.
sean3d3333 shows 6,4,3,2,A for low.

Yup, 1/6th. Sweet.

[Buzz]

Sean - Ten handed, I think your ace-deuce figures to get quartered 37.69%, sixthed 5.31% and eighthed 0.12%. So it does happen.

[ QUOTE ]
ronksol shows [ 9h, 2d, As, Qs ] high card ace.
ronksol shows 6,4,3,2,A for low.

[/ QUOTE ]

One has to wonder what ronksol was thinking to raise on the turn, let alone the river.

If you knew for certain you'd get sixthed, of course you'd do better to fold - but I'm not sure how you could know that against these two bozos. At any rate, you should be delighted to have them in the game with you and providing all that action, although this particular hand didn't work out all that well for you.

But despite the fact that as things turned out, you got sixthed, I still think your decision to call a double bet on the turn was the correct decision.

Is a cap four big bets? If so, looks like it cost you a total of a little over two big bets, starting when you called the double big bet on the turn (because there was some in the pot already, your opponents contributed as much as you did, and you did win back a sixth of the pot). If you had only gotten quartered, because of the money already in the pot from the first two betting rounds, looks like you would actually have won a small bet, assuming I stacked the chips correctly as I read your account.

[ QUOTE ]
Yup, 1/6th. Sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough luck this time, but it's part of the game. You win some and you lose some. Anyhow, losing two big bets hardly seems a disaster. Folding and losing half of a pot you should have won seems worse. And it's honestly pretty hard to know for sure when you're going to get quartered or sixthed.

So I still think a call is correct. In other words, if you're in the same situation tomorrow, I'd still advise you to call, because in the long run I honestly think calling with the nut low works out better than folding the nut low to a little pressure. But on those occasions when you get sixthed or eighthed, folding would usually have been better.

Hey, so would playing a starting hand with four deuces have been better on the rare occasions when the board shows three or four of a kind and nobody else has a pair. But I hope you're not going to start seeing the flop if you happen to get dealt four deuces.

I've only gotten eighthed once in my life and financially it was not much different from getting sixthed, or even quartered. Actually we all got a kick out of it, as I recall. I think I probably was spared the raises and idiot re-raises by greedy, obtuse opponents.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

As a gneral rule I do not lay down the nut high or nut low, even if I think I am sharing that end of the pot. I may back off and stop betting or raising and go into check-call mode. I think laying down the nuts is just wimpy poker.

Sometimes you will get quartered. This usually results in breaking even or close to it. Sometimes you get sixthed and lose money. You could even get eighthed but I have never seen it happen. But you can also win half when your read was wrong. I think you show a log run profit by calling.

[Jeffage]

I don't know about this. I think there are times folding the nut low is relatively easy...say you're in a 3-way pot where it's obvious one and possibly two of your opponents share the nut low and you have no high backup. Esp. if you know it will be jammed, I think a fold is in order. That said, I am still a novice at Omaha8, so my advice could be way off.

Jeff

[anatta]

I am new at this stuff, but it seems to me...

You lose 1/4th of each bet you put in when you are quartered in a three way pot. For example, if you are playing 2/4 limit, you bet 4 on the turn with nut low, you get raised by high, another nut low calls. You call.

You invested $8. Pot increased by 8 x 3 =24. You get 1/4 of $24 or $6. So you lose $2 or 1/4 of the $8.

So the most that you can lose if the turn and river get capped is: 1/4 of 8BB or 2 BB.

So my question, how big does the pot have to be after the flop to make sure you can't lose money by getting quartered in a three way pot? It looks like 8BB but I am starting to enter my mildly retarded state of mind phase watching tv all day (not in my underwear at least!) so I want someone smart to tell me.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
So the most that you can lose if the turn and river get capped is: 1/4 of 8BB or 2 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anatta - You lose one quarter of each bet you put in when you have exactly two opponents who are also putting in money.

You lose half of what you put in with exactly one opponent, and break even with four opponents. You actually make a small amount with five or more opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
So my question, how big does the pot have to be after the flop to make sure you can't lose money by getting quartered in a three way pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

You lose money on each bet when you get quartered once the action is three way. You get a quarter of whatever was in the pot before the action became three way.

It's not really a matter of how much you win or lose when you get quartered as how much you lose on each bet once you have less than three opponents.

But if you really want an answer to your question, it depends on how many bets and raises there are (or how much money you have to invest) once there are fewer than three opponents.

Getting quartered is not usually a big deal in a typical limit game. However, pot limit, one-on-one, it could be very expensive.

Buzz