$11s: back to basics - Page 2

#11 10-20-2005, 11:11 PM

I'm curious whether anyone would have bet the flop rather than check. My instinct would be to make some sort of probe bet and fold to a re-raise. Sometimes when I do this, I'm surprised to find that everyone has folded. But, no one has mentioned that, so maybe I've found a leak. Or, maybe this is a tactic that only works in the low limits so ought not to be learned and then un-learned.

liucipher · #12 10-20-2005, 11:27 PM

SCFuji -

What's your rationale for calling and then leading for 1/2 the pot on the turn? If I believe I'm ahead, what's wrong with leading and/or check-raising on the flop? Is it because it commits me to a continuation bet if he calls?

pergesu · #13 10-20-2005, 11:37 PM

K-T and a diamond are all bad cards on the turn. You have absolutely no idea where you're at. Could be ahead, could be behind..but given that you don't have a clue, could be drawing nearly dead to AJ, and there are lots of turn cards that you don't want to see makes this a pretty shitty situation and should make it obvious that you need to dump it.

As far as TT on the button, raising preflop does a couple things that you don't really want, even with that hand and position. First it creates a bigger pot, which means you'll want/need to win it much more than you would a smaller pot. Secondly, it puts your opponents on the defensive. At first it seems like it'd be nice to make a larger pot and have defensive opponents, but it's really not, because your opponents go into a bad defensive mode - they're a lot less willing to commit their entire stacks on subpar hands.

Basically if you raise here and get a very nice 972 rainbow flop, you'll very likely get an $11 donk to put his stack in with a 9. But you probably won't get them to put their stack in with a 7 and definitely not a 2, whereas if you don't raise preflop you can often get action from a 7 or even a 2. Maybe not the stack, but at least some chips.

The opponents you play are so bad and so willing to play for their stacks with absolutely shitty holdings that you should never focus on picking up small pots, and instead focus on getting their stacks in the middle when you have by far the best of it.

So don't raise there preflop, because you don't do anything to increase the number of chips you can potentially, and in fact almost certainly decrease the number of chips you can win. This has gotten kind of long and I'm sorry for that, but I think this is an important concept to beating the easy games. Your opponents so horrendous that you should keep the pots as small as possible until you know you probably have the best hand, and then get their stack in. Note that I'm not saying you should nut peddle, and in fact I generally play in such a way that doesn't protect my hand the best, but stands the best chance of getting their entire stack in at some point when I think I'm best.

Jurollo · #14 10-20-2005, 11:43 PM

In $11s I am raising TT with position and playing more cautiously on the flop. Perhaps T60 preflop and then reevaluate postflop. Just remember to proceed with caution postflop.
~Justin

liucipher · #15 10-20-2005, 11:46 PM

Thanks. Very helpful post.

Though as I said in another post, I just wanted to be a pushbot ... Your method requires postflop play ... Oh well, I guess I gotta learn ... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

pergesu · #16 10-20-2005, 11:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In $11s I am raising TT with position and playing more cautiously on the flop. Perhaps T60 preflop and then reevaluate postflop. Just remember to proceed with caution postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand this, and against good opponents I think it's absolutely right. At an $11 though, you can play in such a way to make your decisions easy and stack somebody. That sounds like a fun way to play poker, doesn't it?

SCfuji · #17 10-20-2005, 11:51 PM

dont be afraid to see a turn card. if you are ahead in this hand i dont think its by much and a blank turn card will increase the strength of your hand. if you call the flop, which i would do and a diamond comes then id check/fold to a pot sized bet. if you really want to shut the guy down then check raise all in but thats not my preferred play here.

Damian UK · #18 10-21-2005, 08:03 AM

??? I am really confused here ???

You dont raise with 10 10 because you don't want to build a large pot as anyone who calls and misses wont pay you off, so you let them limp in for nothing and then they will pay you off because they have a poor TP?

And surely you do actually have the best hand PF with 10 10 against any two random cards that include a 9 or 7, so why not raise, let the donk call with Q9 and get paid off?

I can't see how when you are sure you have the best hand post flop you are guareenteed to get a donk to put their money in with a rubbish 2nd pair?

You seem to be contridicting yourself - (or I am a donk and don't get what you are saying!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img])

Cheers

Damian

[ QUOTE ]

As far as TT on the button, raising preflop does a couple things that you don't really want, even with that hand and position. First it creates a bigger pot, which means you'll want/need to win it much more than you would a smaller pot. Secondly, it puts your opponents on the defensive. At first it seems like it'd be nice to make a larger pot and have defensive opponents, but it's really not, because your opponents go into a bad defensive mode - they're a lot less willing to commit their entire stacks on subpar hands.

Basically if you raise here and get a very nice 972 rainbow flop, you'll very likely get an $11 donk to put his stack in with a 9. But you probably won't get them to put their stack in with a 7 and definitely not a 2, whereas if you don't raise preflop you can often get action from a 7 or even a 2. Maybe not the stack, but at least some chips.

The opponents you play are so bad and so willing to play for their stacks with absolutely shitty holdings that you should never focus on picking up small pots, and instead focus on getting their stacks in the middle when you have by far the best of it.

So don't raise there preflop, because you don't do anything to increase the number of chips you can potentially, and in fact almost certainly decrease the number of chips you can win. This has gotten kind of long and I'm sorry for that, but I think this is an important concept to beating the easy games. Your opponents so horrendous that you should keep the pots as small as possible until you know you probably have the best hand, and then get their stack in. Note that I'm not saying you should nut peddle, and in fact I generally play in such a way that doesn't protect my hand the best, but stands the best chance of getting their entire stack in at some point when I think I'm best.

[/ QUOTE ]

tigerite · #19 10-21-2005, 08:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
dont be afraid to see a turn card. if you are ahead in this hand i dont think its by much and a blank turn card will increase the strength of your hand. if you call the flop, which i would do and a diamond comes then id check/fold to a pot sized bet. if you really want to shut the guy down then check raise all in but thats not my preferred play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I play it exactly this way, call the flop, bet the turn if it's not a diamond, and maybe not a Q if the guy is really fishy.

Cactus Jack · #20 10-21-2005, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I understand this, and against good opponents I think it's absolutely right. At an $11 though, you can play in such a way to make your decisions easy and stack somebody. That sounds like a fun way to play poker, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you changing the way you play? This isn't the way I expected you to play. I like it, just seemed more like me and less like you.

CJ