KK--interesting developments--River decisions

Zetack · #1 11-25-2004, 12:22 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

I haven't seen the Sb get of line, but I have no specific read on him...

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises....

What about this river...or my entire line for that matter?

--Zetack

StellarWind · #2 11-25-2004, 02:59 AM

Fine until the river.

River: I read JJ, 66, 44, AJ, or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The threat of being reraised by the nuts requires 2-1 odds. I suspect most will counsel a raise but I think it's a close decision without a read.

Zetack · #3 11-25-2004, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fine until the river.

River: I read JJ, 66, 44, AJ, or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The threat of being reraised by the nuts requires 2-1 odds. I suspect most will counsel a raise but I think it's a close decision without a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only one of those I don't beat is the flush--is it that worrying that I should just call?

--Zetack

StellarWind · #4 11-25-2004, 01:10 PM

I said it was a close decision. As in I'm not sure and it probably doesn't matter much.

spamuell · #5 11-25-2004, 01:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fine until the river.

River: I read JJ, 66, 44, AJ, or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Stellar, if this is your read on the river, why did it change from your read on the turn? Because he bet again?

StellarWind · #6 11-25-2004, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Stellar, if this is your read on the river, why did it change from your read on the turn? Because he bet again?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised you don't see this [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img].

[ QUOTE ]
Fine until the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
On the turn I quickly gave the hand an eyeball and saw that it seemed routine.

[ QUOTE ]
River: I read JJ, 66, 44, AJ, or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
On the river I actually put some thought into my answer and developed a hand list.

I guess I should have reread the rest of my answer at that point. You are right, the turn call is pretty doubtful [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. The pot is small and you won't be ahead of an unknown player very often. Plus his outs when he is behind are much better than your outs when you are behind.

I could redeem myself slightly by expanding my read to include other flushes, especially suited connectors built around 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. But it doesn't really change anything.

Sent · #7 11-25-2004, 01:49 PM

He pulled a stop and go on the turn, and since you called there hard to know if he hit a flush. You cannot really gather anything by him betting out, I raise him here, you beat the majority of hands you put him on. If he 3-bets though I'd probably just call and save a BB.

-Sent

WannaGoPro · #8 11-25-2004, 02:12 PM

I would raise the turn here then check or bet the river depending on the card.

Your calling this hand down anyway so by raising the turn the following will happen:

You raise and he folds (you take it down right there)
You raise and he calls and checks the river to you in which case you can check the river depending on the card

Either one of these two plays will cost you two BB the same as it would if you just called him down but you get the added benifit of him possibly folding his hand.

The other possibility is that you will get three bet on the turn in which case you can comfortably fold your hand, with the same result, 2 BB

StellarWind · #9 11-25-2004, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You raise and he folds (you take it down right there)

[/ QUOTE ]
In that case either he is completely bluffing and has no outs at all or he has a pocket underpair that is drawing to two outs.

Either way you do better to keep him in the hand and try to make another bet on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
The other possibility is that you will get three bet on the turn in which case you can comfortably fold your hand, with the same result, 2 BB

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But you lose your chance to spike a king and win. Just because folding to a 3-bet is correct does not mean raising with the worse hand is not costly compared to calling down.

BTW, what do you do after you raise and he pulls a stop-n-go on a blank river? Hint, there is no good answer to this question.

Zetack · #10 11-26-2004, 01:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

I haven't seen the Sb get of line, but I have no specific read on him...

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises....

What about this river...or my entire line for that matter?

--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the rest of the hand:

SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Qh Ah (flush, ace high).
Hero has Ks Kc (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: SB wins 12.50 BB. 

Thanks for the thoughts...I'm still not sure what the better play was here, but I'll keep pondering.

--Zetack