A previously "well-respected" MTT cheating team...

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
instead of calling people goofballs... lets try and keep this polite and informative?

[/ QUOTE ]

Too late. Part of the problem is that the RGP crew, both here and in the relevant thread at RGP, is just ranting without trying to make any sense of what's going on, assuming that Jerrod was trying to be smug when he said "What one player to a hand rule?"

But he's not. The rule that you're talking about exists in B&M casinos. But I've read the rules for Party, Paradise, and Stars tournaments and there is no one player to a hand rule. (At Stars there's some room for debate: Poker is an individual (not a team) game. Any action intended to help another player is unethical and is prohibited.; the examples given are chip dumping and softplay though) There are anti-collusion rules, but these are not the same thing, I don't think, as these typically refer to situations where players AT THE SAME TABLE are sharing information or softplaying, something that Jerrod stresses they don't do.

There are also occasionally vague "poker etiquette" rules. Does violating one player to a hand break poker etiquette? Perhaps, but being a table coach is bad poker etiqutte too, but it's hardly cheating.

Instead of ranting about how these guys are cheating, which they are almost certainly not, a better question might be is what they are doing ethical? That's tough.

[ZebraAss]

I don't know what you guys are talking about with all this poker nonsense... but I visited this "RGP forum" and it was like nothing i have ever seen! I mean, wow! I dont think there could be a more perfect forum.

I learned more within 5 minutes at the RGP forum then I did over the past 3 months at 2+2.

WHat did I learn?

I learned that Rectilinear's girl friend has a Musty Pussy.

-Zebra

PS: RGP = Worst forum ever, period.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
Have I EVER conversed with someone over the phone, AIM, or other communication while they were on the same table or tournament with me. NFWAY.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question was clear, don't spin it.

We're not talking about friends in the same table.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
instead of calling people goofballs... lets try and keep this polite and informative?

[/ QUOTE ]

Too late. Part of the problem is that the RGP crew, both here and in the relevant thread at RGP, is just ranting without trying to make any sense of what's going on, assuming that Jerrod was trying to be smug when he said "What one player to a hand rule?"

But he's not. The rule that you're talking about exists in B&M casinos. But I've read the rules for Party, Paradise, and Stars tournaments and there is no one player to a hand rule. (At Stars there's some room for debate: Poker is an individual (not a team) game. Any action intended to help another player is unethical and is prohibited.; the examples given are chip dumping and softplay though) There are anti-collusion rules, but these are not the same thing, I don't think, as these typically refer to situations where players AT THE SAME TABLE are sharing information or softplaying, something that Jerrod stresses they don't do.

There are also occasionally vague "poker etiquette" rules. Does violating one player to a hand break poker etiquette? Perhaps, but being a table coach is bad poker etiqutte too, but it's hardly cheating.

Instead of ranting about how these guys are cheating, which they are almost certainly not, a better question might be is what they are doing ethical? That's tough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice post, sir.

[ekky]

of course he will stress that they dont do that... but once a player has proven his apathy to ethical behaviour, can we automatically assume they are honest, just because they say so?

[IHateKeithSmart]

[ QUOTE ]
Ever given or taken advice while playing online? Any other veterans around here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Veteran - poker, yes. This forum, no.

Given/taken advice online (or B&M for that matter) - no, I haven't and will not do it.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
Instead of ranting about how these guys are cheating, which they are almost certainly not, a better question might be is what they are doing ethical? That's tough.



[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more.

[rforman13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have I EVER conversed with someone over the phone, AIM, or other communication while they were on the same table or tournament with me. NFWAY.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question was clear, don't spin it.

We're not talking about friends in the same table.

[/ QUOTE ]

My answer was clear as well...don't spin it or ask closed ended questions where you are just trying to get a yes or no answer that is in itself not enough information.

I mean..."Has anyone ever traded hole cards with you at a table in a live game??" No...probably not, but that tells me nothing about whether or not you partake in unethical behavior.

Look...to be perfectly honest, when I read the Blog..I was clear to notice that they made a point that they do not talk about hands if they are at the same table. If we are to assume that they never cross the line, then you know what...I can probably live with people "discussing" hands. I also happen to be a fellow classmate of Matt Matros and while I did not know him during school...I have corresponded with him about poker since them...and I am would be very comfortable saying that he is the type of guy who would NOT cheat.

However...coming from a B&M background...I am maybe a little but naive about the things that take place online. Sure...I know how possible and easy they are, but really the thought of doing anything remotely suspect makes me very uncomfortable. That includes chatting on the phone with other players in the same tournament...something I have never done, and wouldn't feel comfortable with.

Now...I have participated in forum tourneys (not rgp)...where we have a thread going and there is pretty much carte blanch communication on the thread...hands posted, [censored] talking, revealing hands...etc, but that info is accessible to all participating in the tourney.

I am sure you see where I stand. I am reluctant to call them cheaters...but I dont' think what they are doing is in the spirit of the game.

[rforman13]

Also...I know a lot of you are more online players...so let me give you an idea of where my perspective comes from.

I have played poker for 10 years, about 6 in the middle limits (20/40 - 40/80) and have only really played a lot of online poker in the last 8 months...I know...I know...what an idiot..lol. I actually was on Planet Poker when it came out...and used to run it up big and then piss it away drunk while in college. I had sworn online poker off until giving it another chance recently.

Just think about what you can and cannot do at a live poker table. Sure, online is different, but there are somethings that should not be, despite the fact that they CAN be.

I can tell my friend my hole cards while at the same table if playing online (via phone)...whats to stop me really....but just because I can, doesn't mean I should. Plain and simple.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
of course he will stress that they dont do that... but once a player has proven his apathy to ethical behaviour, can we automatically assume they are honest, just because they say so?

[/ QUOTE ]

But I think one can debate how ethical or unethical this is. As an example, how do you feel about PokerTracker, PlayerView and the like? How do you feel about using PT to datamine tables that you're not playing at? This last, in particular, is an example of other behaviors that many people employ online that I think could be considered ethically suspect, and possibly even cheating, but there are lots of people on either side of that debate.

I'm reasonably happy taking Jerrod's word that they do their utmost to prevent softplay or genuine collusion. It would be highly, highly foolish to advertise this kind of behavior if you didn't think you were pretty good about not actually colluding in the rare situations it was relevant because the consequences of being caught are high and it's so easy to just not say anything about it.