Pot odds after a raise

[redbaronat]

Hi, I've just had a discussion on pot odds in the micro-limits forum and I have a question.

If i bet into a group of perople and then I get raised (on the flop say) and I think I am behind, do I include the bet I have already put in on this round as part of the pot, or do I count this as bet part of the bet I have to make?

e.g. there are 4 bets in the pot and 4 players.
I bet once and there are two callers.
The third player raises.

so, are my pot odds now 8-1 or 8-2?

red.

[Jim C]

8:1

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, I've just had a discussion on pot odds in the micro-limits forum and I have a question.

If i bet into a group of perople and then I get raised (on the flop say) and I think I am behind, do I include the bet I have already put in on this round as part of the pot, or do I count this as bet part of the bet I have to make?

e.g. there are 4 bets in the pot and 4 players.
I bet once and there are two callers.
The third player raises.

so, are my pot odds now 8-1 or 8-2?

red.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither.

[DemonDeac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi, I've just had a discussion on pot odds in the micro-limits forum and I have a question.

If i bet into a group of perople and then I get raised (on the flop say) and I think I am behind, do I include the bet I have already put in on this round as part of the pot, or do I count this as bet part of the bet I have to make?

e.g. there are 4 bets in the pot and 4 players.
I bet once and there are two callers.
The third player raises.

so, are my pot odds now 8-1 or 8-2?

red.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, its 9:1, my man

[OrangeKing]

Any bets you've already put in the pot no longer belong to you - they're part of the pot. So yes, they're part of what you use in calculating pot odds. This comes up sometimes where you'd never want to play a hand for two bets, but you limp on the button...then it's raised in the blinds. Well, now you have another decision to make, and it's almost always correct for you to again call one bet, even though you wouldn't have called two bets to you originally.

[Louie Landale]

Right now its 9:1, go for that. But you also have to take into account the small chance that one of the callers is going to 3-bet, which will reduce your odds AND reduce the chance you end up with the best hand (he's slow playing). You also have to take into account the chances that they just call which will increase your pot odds, in this case to 11:1.

Whether their presense in the pot is good for you depends on the type of hand you have.

- Louie

[redbaronat]

Yeah, I thinks this is where I was going.

I did some research in The Theory of Poker and came to the conclusion that you have to think about things differently in a multi-handed game to a heads up scenario.

OK, so lets say you bet.
You bet for one of seven reasons.
1) To get more money in the pot.
2) to drive out players with worse hands.
3) To bluff or semi-bluff.
4) To get a free card
5) To gain information
6) To drive out "worse than second best" hands
7) To drive out better hands when a come hand bets.

OK, You are heads up and then the person opposite you raises you after you have bet. You now possibly have the worse hand.

In this case you can ignore the bet you put in when calculating your pot odds, because you were putting it in for a different reason.

OK, in a multi-handed pot, you have a reasonable hand that can improve and you are behind a raiser and before two other players.

The raiser raises (as is his wont) and you call, because he odds are there. Now, the next player raises and the person afterwards re-raises. The original raiser then cold-calls the two other bets.

It's obvious that I am way behind and the pot needs to be massive for me to call. My question is, am I sensible including the first call that I made as part of my overall call on this round, or do I just calculate my pot odds on the basis of a two bet call?

My "answer" now is that you now have a different decision to make because you now have more information. you must now beat a three good hands, so you probably have less outs. And at the end of the day you only have to put two more bets in. So you ignore your original call when calculating your pot odds.

[Louie Landale]

So. You find yourself in a situation with the probable worst hand and you are considering calling. Do this: You compare your Odds-against-winning ratio with the reward-cost ratio. Pot odds is close to the reward-cost ratio but ignores future cost and future winnings. Call if that comparision is favorable, fold if it isn't. Notice that you use your chances of losing the pot divided by your chances of winning the pot as your Odds-against-winning ratio; specifically you do NOT substitute "improving" with "winning".

Notice that none of the above is directly influenced by any decisions you made in the past. There isn't much difference between you betting and getting 3-bet or you calling and then getting 3-bet: its 2-bets to call, what are your chances of winning, how big is the pot. Then add future costs: will it getted capped? Do you have to call a turn bet? Can I lose additional money even when I improve? Add future rewards: will I get paid off?

So when you say you ignore your initial bet and now consider calling 2-bets, its not because your bet was made for different reasons, its because it happened in the past.

And Yes, your chances drop drastically as the number of opponent's choose to raise. This drop in your chances of winning routinely overshadows the increase in pot odds you experience.

- Louie