Protecting overcards

[dingbet]

B&M 6/12, no reads

HERO is in MP2

3 folds, MP1 calls, HERO calls with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2 folds, button raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, HERO calls.

10 bets

Flop comes:
2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, HERO?

Here is my thinking. I usually bet this for two reasons: the pot is large and I would like the button to raise and perhaps protect my overcard outs. However, after thinking about it, if the button does raise, doesn't that indicate he has a hand, probably an overpair, that makes my overcards useless anyway. Do I really want to go heads up with an overpair. If that is case, isn't it better for me to check to him, and play the pot more like I've got a flush draw without overs?

I understand, if I were the button and he were in MP, I'd definitely raise. But its different when I bet into him, and he raises. Remind me why betting is better here again, if it is at all.

[soweak.]

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Remind me why betting is better here again, if it is at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

For Pot equity, and to hope that the button raises so you can thin the field and possible get some of your overcard outs back if you're dominated by other hands here.

[sweetjazz]

Check the flop and raise after the preflop raiser on your right bets, trapping the field for two bets with your nice draw + overcards.

[sweetjazz]

Betting this flop is very wrong.

[dingbet]

You don't think the pot is big enough to try and protect the overcards?

[sweetjazz]

No. You need some to have exactly a J or a T and a better kicker (or possibly someone with T2) to fold for two bets instead of one. You need the preflop raiser to raise you if he has overcards like AK or AQ. And then you still need to hit your overcard.

The cost of doing this, even if it works, is driving out people who would contribute to your high pot equity on the flop and possibly become tied to their hand and pay you off when the flush hits.

I thinking cleaning up overcard outs is one of the most overused and abused concepts. I think many players might even do better if they hadn't even heard of this idea, because it often distracts them from more important aspects of a hand.

On this flop, your goal is to get as many bets as you can on the flop without knocking out too much of the field. The check-raise is the best way to accomplish this.

[Louie Landale]

Hoping he raises doesn't seem right to me unless he's sure to raise with AQ. Even then, I think you want folks in the pot suggesting you should check-raise. If your cards were higher than its worse since he's much more likely to have you dominated.

You should certainly bet if he's doesn't routinely bet out.

I don't put a lot of value on this "protecting your overcard outs", since it really isn't likely that you will hit your overcard and THEN someone with a hand that will call two single bets but not a double bet will outdraw you, such as 97 in this example.

- Louie