Giving up small pots - theoretical question

[Catt]

I know the frustration. But I've strated taking the approach that I can't fight these fights without a reasonable draw that could give me the best hand, especially OOP. I'm more inclined to take stands when I have position, and growing more comfortable day by day with an ungodly amount of check-folding against ridiculous LAGs in small pots even when I think their range is wide open. There are chips to be won out in the center of the table; and there's a chance that I actually have the best hand; but I'm not in position to make the most / lose the least and I have no clue as to how to play the hand well (in a TOP sense) whereas my opponent has a lot of options to play better than me (in a TOP sense) even if he's not as good a player.

[jba]

is it crazy to want to raise preflop in the situation I described? it just seems like LAG and TAG would both be raising if they had any sort of hand at all?

[Surfbullet]

I'll raise preflop with alot of hands there, but due to my "runoverable" image I was really looking to see a flop and try and win a hand to do something to recover that...I think my FE is greatly reduced by this and the action i'll get if I hit a hand (top-mid pair?) will more than make up for it.

Surf

[Lurker4]

if this LAG will give you so much action when he doesn't even have a pair, why not just pair-mine as Subfallen said and just do this when flop any kind of reasonable made hand? if you can get 4BB in postflop (1 on flop, 2 on turn, 1 on river) with something as weak as 98 here, then don't worry about the small pots you are potentially giving up by check/folding what may be the best hand but where it will be expensive to find out in a small pot.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I knock QTo in the BB.

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I commented on this the other day. You are making moves and you don't even know what color your cards are. Now maybe you actually did know, but your write up suggests that you are attaching no importance to it.

I've just gone through a horrible session where a 70/20 complete idiot ran up over 100 BB doing exactly this nonsense and a huge piece of that came off of me [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]. I feel your pain. I don't know what to say except it is going to happen and it totally sucks and you must keep your cool.

If you are really sure he doesn't have an ace you can call the flop, especially if you have a diamond. This is a marginal showdown hand in context and the ideas are:

1) Try to make a pair out of your de facto overcards. You have really good implied odds on making a hand versus this opponent. Stretch preflop and on the flop to make a few extra hands.

2) If you pick up a straight or flush draw you can use it as a bridge across the turn. Now it only costs you 1 BB to show down Q-high after you miss. If the turn totally fails you give up. This technique helps you cheaply show down enough hands to prevent his constant bluffing from being profitable.

3) Keeping yourself in the game. You can't make it too easy for the maniac to read when you hit a hand. Calling zero EV flops is an investment in getting paid when you flop something good. It also sends a message to the bystanders that you cannot be swept out of the way everytime they want to go heads up with the idiot. If you fold too much in this spot the SB can start calling more loose flops secure in the knowledge that you will probably disappear.

As for checkraising this flop with junk, never do that. This player is not only almost unbluffable, he often bluff reraises. That's a devastating answer to your bluff and it comes naturally to him.

With a reasonable king in this situation you should just call him down. You have a bluff catcher and you should let him bluff.

With a pair in this situation you should checkraise the flop. No reason to ever bet when he will always do it for you. Some might say that they would prefer to be raised so that SB faces two, but this overlooks that SB has eyes and a brain. Once he sees what you are doing he will realize that he calls the flop at his peril. Fear of being checkraised will help you with a lot of hands where you don't even want to raise. He can never call the flop without risking it coming back 3-bets.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I knock QTo in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
I commented on this the other day. You are making moves and you don't even know what color your cards are. Now maybe you actually did know, but your write up suggests that you are attaching no importance to it.

I've just gone through a horrible session where a 70/20 complete idiot ran up over 100 BB doing exactly this nonsense and a huge piece of that came off of me [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]. I feel your pain. I don't know what to say except it is going to happen and it totally sucks and you must keep your cool.

If you are really sure he doesn't have an ace you can call the flop, especially if you have a diamond. This is a marginal showdown hand in context and the ideas are:

1) Try to make a pair out of your de facto overcards. You have really good implied odds on making a hand versus this opponent. Stretch preflop and on the flop to make a few extra hands.

2) If you pick up a straight or flush draw you can use it as a bridge across the turn. Now it only costs you 1 BB to show down Q-high after you miss. If the turn totally fails you give up. This technique helps you cheaply show down enough hands to prevent his constant bluffing from being profitable.

3) Keeping yourself in the game. You can't make it too easy for the maniac to read when you hit a hand. Calling zero EV flops is an investment in getting paid when you flop something good. It also sends a message to the bystanders that you cannot be swept out of the way everytime they want to go heads up with the idiot. If you fold too much in this spot the SB can start calling more loose flops secure in the knowledge that you will probably disappear.

As for checkraising this flop with junk, never do that. This player is not only almost unbluffable, he often bluff reraises. That's a devastating answer to your bluff and it comes naturally to him.

With a reasonable king in this situation you should just call him down. You have a bluff catcher and you should let him bluff.

With a pair in this situation you should checkraise the flop. No reason to ever bet when he will always do it for you. Some might say that they would prefer to be raised so that SB faces two, but this overlooks that SB has eyes and a brain. Once he sees what you are doing he will realize that he calls the flop at his peril. Fear of being checkraised will help you with a lot of hands where you don't even want to raise. He can never call the flop without risking it coming back 3-bets.

[/ QUOTE ]


i cant remember if i wrote this yesterday or not, but i am really happy you got some credit for your great posts by being made a mod

[Surfbullet]

Thanks Stellar, that was a great post. I am confident in how I handle made hands vs this type of player, and now I really feel like I have some tools when it comes to playing unmade hands.

[ QUOTE ]
I commented on this the other day. You are making moves and you don't even know what color your cards are. Now maybe you actually did know, but your write up suggests that you are attaching no importance to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

As for this...

That hand the other day I felt the move was good regardless of the color of my cards. I suppose that implies i deemed it +EV with any2, which isn't the case...just that at that particular moment given the previous hands and the way they had been reacting to my bets+c/r's that I thought I could pull it off. Having some backdoors is a great way too regulate this type of stuff.

This hand is fictional. My hole cards, and the board, are both different from an actual hand that happened in a similar fashion - the gist remains the same while protecting my identity, I suspect there was a 2p2er or two at that table. The TAG player base in the 20/40 game is pretty constant, and in a post the other day one 2+2er figured out who I am.

Again, excellent post. Thanks for the insight - and congrats on being made a mod.

Surf

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
everything turns into a pissing contest once they hit the bet or raise button for the first time, so the only way to take down little pots unconstested is for you to piss first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, this is true. Bet this flop (or checkfold). Checkraising is meaningsless because he will never fold and u got no idea where u are and he is good at using this.

Also I would start with raising this preflop because they would raise preflop with Ax so now any Axx, Qxx and Jxx flop will be yours and megaLAG will pretty often fold Axx if he isnt hit, but not Qxx and Jxx, which is perfect.

The upside of playing every pot aggressivley until showdown (of being a megaLAG) is that u will win a lot small pots when noone got a hand and u will win a lot more then others when u actually hit a good hand against another good but not so good hand, because noone gives u credit for it.

Downside is that u will lose much more then u should every time u come to showdown with a worse hand, and that is most of the time, at least as long as it isnt HU.

If a megaLAG was a good player we could say to ourselfs: "Ok, I got to call/attack a little when I got nothing at all because otherwise he will not give me action when I attack." (This is how we play agains a good LAG)

But this is how we would think. We would think that if a guy only bet against us with a real hand he would be easy to read and we would stop betting nothing.

But this is not how the megaLAG thinks. He is betting/raising because people fold when u do that. In his mind he will adapt to us calling/attacking a little more (like in this QJo hand) with betting/raising a little less, because now people suddenly folds less. And then he starts to play better, not worse.

If u play against a megaLAG u must let him win if u want him to keep playing like an idiot. If u call him down every time u think its +-0 u will not only get much higer swings, u will also get him to think u are boring, never folding when he bets. His style suddenly has less effect.

The easy way to play a megaLAG is to fold when u got nothing, call with little and bet/attack with ok hands. Dont go into a mindwar with him, dont try to outthink him. Just play your cards like you did when u started out at $.50/1, u need best hand to win and they are so bad that u can forget about handreading, u just have to put them on a range of hands and play against that (if that range is "any2", thats just fine).

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. [ QUOTE ]
I tell him he had the best hand

[/ QUOTE ] Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because i've been at the table for 10 minutes and all he's done is run me over.

[/ QUOTE ]
I sometimes do this too but I think it is a mistake EV wise and that as soon as I stop completely I will have become a better poker player.

The psychological consititution of a LAG just gets to me for some reason. Probably outside life related.

When I am clear headed I can take advantage of it and then I let him think he can dominate me. Let him think he is king. Let him think I am weak tight and then take advantage of it later when I have something or with marginal holdings in bigger pots. Usually he still thinks I'm weak tight and push way more than he should.

When I'm less clear headed, or have taken some beats, I have a tendency to engage in a struggle for domination with LAGs, usually only on a psychological level, i.e. in the chat, but every once in a while even in pots against the non-folding LAG type, in other words play bad poker. This happens less and less frequently, but it still creeps up once in a while and is a leak that needs to be plugged on the impossible road to perfection.

The higher the limit, the more important to have this leak plugged. There are few passives as they get slaughtered so fast so the LAGs start becoming the only exploitable fish available.

I know this is a note to self kind of post. Maybe some can relate to it though.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
He shows KTo. I tell him he had the best hand, and he continues to gloat over his "bluff."

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you want to be a good person or do you want to make more money?

Trick question because you can have both.

Let him be happy in his triumph. He loses a lot of money at this game and the thrill of bluffing someone off the best hand is his reward. Be the bigger person and swallow your frustration. You know you are the better player and you don't have anything to prove to him. Say nothing or better yet compliment him on his bluff*. Let him be happy and he play longer and he'll play looser. It's very good for business.

* Um, I haven't managed the compliment part yet. Sometimes my intelligence outstrips my maturity [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. Maybe this post will help me with that.